token system for armor

[paintolar]

Im just working on leveling and finding trans sets (only have 2 full trans sets on builders, and no level capped toons) but really like the idea (more the guarenteed drop upon survival completion than the tokens).

I do see both sides of the discussion, i used to play wow (5 years ago) and when i was playing they were gradually introducing better and better gear available thru tokens. The differance there tho was that if you were doing a top end raid, EVERY boss killed rewarded a top teir item. While i didnt like the token system that much, it was nice to know that after working on a progression boss, there was a reward waiting at the end of it.

Paintolar.

[EnoKhaon]

Im just working on leveling and finding trans sets (only have 2 full trans sets on builders, and no level capped toons) but really like the idea (more the guarenteed drop upon survival completion than the tokens).

I do see both sides of the discussion, i used to play wow (5 years ago) and when i was playing they were gradually introducing better and better gear available thru tokens. The differance there tho was that if you were doing a top end raid, EVERY boss killed rewarded a top teir item. While i didnt like the token system that much, it was nice to know that after working on a progression boss, there was a reward waiting at the end of it.

Paintolar.

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To be honest, that's actually one of the key reasons I make my argument against the idea of tokens. The sense of entitlement granted by being guaranteed to receive items skews peoples' perceptions of how they should receive items. Guarantee items (of a noteworthy, highly-valued quality to players) in Dungeon Defenders and it defeats the original, ordinary means of getting items.

Beating a raid boss in World of Warcraft and other similarly planned MMORPG titles guaranteeing loot as well as giving tokens to guarantee further loot simply gives players a sense of entitlement they don't genuinely "deserve" to have. Why should they bother doing anything new which won't guarantee items they'd use if they can do the next best thing and get exactly what they want?

It doesn't exactly make it more fun. It essentially makes things more tedious. If you have that case of guaranteed item followed by random again, people aren't willing to accept the randomness anymore. People will always only use the second-best that they can always get instead.

[Halagren]

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Sorry to be a killjoy, then, but this even further exemplifies my reasoning for being against the idea. If this option is only provided to those who are already at the top of the totem pole equipment-wise, then the gap between players would grow even more dramatically. The weak would still be weak and the strong would have room to grow (by the token system itself, anyway).

For one, while I do have mostly mythical equipment still, it's fairly mid-high end mythical stuff. I've found dozens of pieces of transcendent and a couple supreme and ultimate pieces of armor, but in general they've been wrong armor types for the stat combinations they provide, have had really lousy stats, or have even simply had semi-similar stats, but still not good enough when fully upgraded. I've simply found many lousy stat combinations on a lot of equipment.

This obviously isn't the best example, seeing that it's a weapon rather than armor, but I've gotten similarly unimpressive loot of a similar calibur:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/59...AAF3F78C05E60/

I'm really only not at the best equipped of this particular game due to luck of the draw. And again, while I do understand the conceptual ideal behind a token system to aid in earning equipment, I've still seen numerous games which have tried it and, while it's theoretically popular among the players, has muddied down the gameplay to the point where the normal means of obtaining equipment is virtually meaningless.

Honestly, I like the idea of token systems from the perspective of a newer player or of a player having trouble reaching that next step.
However, I simply can't agree with the idea from the perspective of a player who wants the continued immersion of the game. If I can reach that pinnacle whether I "succeed" or not, so to speak (i.e. whether the loot drops or not), the game loses value inherently. It's the quirks (bugs which aren't completely bugs, such as item limits causing items to vanish off the ground) and strategies (gameplay itself) and risks (rushing out to grab items mid-wave isn't exactly the safest plan, since dying could cost the entire game) which keep me going at this game. Having the expectation to "automatically" receive upgrades every X amount of time (due to collecting tokens gradually) through any kind of sense of entitlement simply means not wanting to play the game to the fullest, and that's not something I want to stand behind. Give the baby a bottle every time it's desired and the teenager expects everything given without effort.

i dont understand how you can think im a baby with a bottle. i complete the hardest content in the game and receive literally nothing for it EVER. you really think i should get absolutely nothing from my last 100 hours of gameplay? 100 hours is "everything given without effort"?

call a sense of entitlement if you want but yea if i play for 100 hours, i DO expect something as opposed to nothing. if i keep on playing and my next 300 hours i recieve nothing ill probably stop playing, as most already have. i suppose you'd prefer people leave cuz getting good items legitimately is nearly impossible lol. "not playing the game to it's fullest" really? im playing any and all levels to full completion, im pretty sure that is how it was intended xD im just not finding it possible to gear up past trans. if you really think this is such a horrible idea then you need to offer up a better solution rather than just bash on my idea. you're not being constructive, only tearing down my solution.

and please stop saying things like "effortless" and "obtaining without effort" because it is completely opposite of everything ive said. i mean unless you REALLY think 100 hours of play receiving nothing is fine cuz that much time is truly effortless. if that is the case.....wow.

[EnoKhaon]

I'm really not aiming for an aggressive or insulting tone, Halagren. Honest.

I'm also not saying that playing the game and receiving any given thing for it is "effortless," but I suppose I should have been more clear in defining what kinds of games have created that stereotype for token systems. The problem lies in the fact that many games which have implemented token systems tend to give them out at a steady pace, regardless of the difficulty of area you're playing in. They're often Facebook/casual games, but again, that's an entirely different matter.

Also, just to note, what you might have missed is that I've previously commented in this thread about how this is a problem which would best be solved by modifications to the loot dropping mechanics/calculations, rather than by creating a new form of currency in the game, especially because the currency would most likely (as is often the case in games) be too valuable, be too worthless, and almost never anywhere in between.

Anyway, the problem I see in token systems in games is that while the idea is sound on paper, they tend to fall flat in terms of perpetuating gameplay. Perpetuating gameplay by always giving something else to strive for is a key aspect of how this game has been able to hold players' interest for this whole year.

[Halagren]

The problem is that i dont have perpetuating gameplay right now at all. and many are hitting this wall. there is nothing for me to strive for, because im already running the most difficult content and not receiving anything for it.

[iamisom]

Great idea, but it's not in the scope of what we could currently do with the game.

[supernovae]

Great idea, but it's not in the scope of what we could currently do with the game.

I do not believe this.

The game already gives rewards for completing maps. Therefore it could give tokens for finishing maps if you really wanted it to.

The game also supports "item turn-ins". Remember that pos easter event where we had to collect eggs for a costume!?

The only problem i see is the lack of support from TE now for this game..

[Halagren]

Great idea, but it's not in the scope of what we could currently do with the game.

sorry hitmonchan but supernovae in the post just above this hit the nail on the head...there ARE ways you could currently do it in game without adding any new mechanics. supernovae even gave a simple example of how it could work with ZERO mechanic changes.

if it's not in the "scope of what we could currently do" then it's because there just isnt anybody working on this game anymore. Sorry if i sound harsh but existing loot shouldnt be unattainable via legitimate playing of the hardest content.....

EDIT: after further consideration i will admit, not being withing your scope *COULD* mean you have something better planned to help fix this issue and a token system would not fit into that mold. if that is the case you need to at least let us know what you are trying to implement. you need to start getting feedback right away!!!!! all the shards patches have been poorly tested with little to no feedback accepted before the patch. and every one of those patches was SO imbalanced it required emergency patching 3-4 times the day of the patch, and further patching for the next WEEK to fix it. so IF, and that is a very big IF, you have something planned to help alleviate this issue, then please make the community aware.

[omnix32]

very tired of running aqua/sky nmhcmm all the way to 30 and seeing none drop with 4 summoners...this would at least add a way for me to eventually get some armor even if the RNG screws me royally (which it does).

running more than one summoner will give you godly, epic and crap armor drops. After extensive testing with split screen 3 summoners I do not come up with more sup/trans drops than just running normal toons. Twice I came away with 9 trans wave 30 AQ just running no summoners, and 2 times with summoners I came away with 3 trans no sup. I do notice more epic/ godly staying around in the form of armor though.

The armor drops are crap................ no other way of looking at it.

Now you can hit 3K stats with just myth. I would look for the Ult Weapon drops that have tower, and farm the heck out of those seahoreses.

another option would be nightmare rocks.. but it seems you need nightmare rocks to get them.... wipe at wave 25......... dohhh...

Peeps have beaten Crystal Dimension , so if they can... We can.