About progression or lack thereof.

[Lyho]

But to the remaining two groups, I have the question: Have you actually COMPLETED the game on Insane? Have you completed it on Hard even? Progression as I see it means that you have defeated EVERYTHING, every mission and challenge, on one difficulty level, have nothing left to achieve on that difficulty and thus expect yourself to be ready to move on to the next one.

I don't know what exactly is my category : I have a 2k hp 1k damage hero countess, a couple of tower sets with 800 to 1.5k stats and own EV and summoner.

I think I'm in the low-mid geared category.

I did everything in the right order from normal to insane with friends. When NM came out we were crushed on DW and once afk shops and ES unlocked NM for us we progressively completed everything (campaign HC, challenges HC, assault, warping core, shards, shards challenges, Nm sky o love...) on NM until today where only CitC survival and NM CD is left for us to complete.

After the first ES stepping stone I think that the number of upgrades I have actually found while playing is just a joke : maybe 3 ? Obviously less than 10.

So when we understood the only way to get better stuff than cheap myth from shops was shards survival we tried mystimire HC. We did 2 runs so far for a total of ~10trans and a supreme armors, all of them but one (one of the upgrades I found ) were absolute garbage.

What is completely absurd is how quality works : "hey guys here's a new quality tier, ultra rare but with better stats !". What happens in game is that "ultra rare" means that it almost only exists in 1 game mode (on higher waves) and "better stats" means higher stat range which basically leads to very few drops with even fewer chances to get something valuable.
In a nutshell, to find upgrades you have to work with :
-Restriction to a game mode
-High requirements (need to get to higher waves)
-Low drop probability
-Low probability to get desired stats
-Very low probability to get decent numbers in each desired stats
-Acceptable probability to get decent number of upgrades
-Low armors/weapons ratio

None of those factors are a serious problem, what is not acceptable is that every of them is occuring at the same time. I'd say that only 3 or 4 of those should be cumulated.

Normal to insane was perfect because you found everything you needed on the way to move on. Starting NM was a pain because nothing obtained before or during NM could help moving on and right now I'm not even looking for upgrades their seriously too hard to get for their purpose (which is obliterating already beatable content).

I honestly think campaign should already drop some trans quite rarely and that survival later waves should seriously give a lot more good stuff (like maybe half myth and half higher quality tiers on shards, 65/35 on higher campaign levels, ...) because right now trans and higher qualities might as well not exist at all for me...

[fulano]

A good read and many valuable points. The grind curve is simply too high to be fun, it's not that it's too hard to play(there are many ingenious builds for each map), but that the stat check after breaking into nightmare is too high and the rarity of items that enable a player to pass such checks too extreme.

There are plenty of games that are very difficult and still fun(as a person who has all the achievements on Witcher 2), granted none of them are in the unique position of a Tower Defense/RPG, but a little effort by the trendy team to make the NM grind more fun by increasing drop quality and quantity would go a long way to alleviating the frustrations of many players.

The game should be more about if you can come up with a build that is campable of overcoming the challenge ahead, not coming up with a build that allows you to AFK with a summoner for 25-30 waves(multiple times) in the hope of getting gear to attempt the next hurdle.

EDIT: I'll add my experiences with the game up to my current state(trying SC NM).

I played this game with a friend, we ran through insane, etc, at the end of this we had between us, a Adept builder, ranger DPS and a App DPS, all in the 100-300 range max. All good. We then did the insane challenges for the reward items with raised some of our stats to be more evenly spread in the 300 range.

To attempt to break into nm, we farmed wave 1 ES(pre goblin choppers). I leveled up a Aura monk and Huntress, he leveled a summoner.

When we finally managed to complete ES on NMHC our stats sat at around 300-600. At this point we were able to complete the original campaign(pre choppers) in it's entirety. I can't imagine being able to complete the NMHC campaign with such stats now.

My friend takes a break from DD at this point, returning only to get the Legendary Defender achievement with me, just as we finish, Shards 4 breaks and ruins all our previous NM builds.

At this point I level a Tower Countess and also a Summoner and outfit them with spare Myth gear I have, for around 600-700 stats on the countess and 300-500 on summoner. This together with my monk is enough to farm post shards 4 NMHC survivals on Magus Quarters, which gives me a way to upgrade my gear(via upgrades and AFK shopping) as well as a reliable way to farm trans pets(other than hoping for uber monsterfests or CiTC insane runs to show in public lobbies).

From there it's been a slow and rather dull grind, taking each shards map as I can and also getting an EV on the eay, and I'm rather stuck at Sky City really. Furthermore, I needed help to best the shards bosses, even on insane. I simply didn't have a weapon that would kill them before they destroyed my builds(except moroggo, that was fine).

If I may
L83 Hybrid/DPS Huntress - 733/2185/230/164
L82 Tower Countess - 1005/1984/1110/749
L79 DPS Apprentice - 1150/1755/321/862 ---> move it to tower
L79 Minion Summoner - 1095/1524/270/662 ---> needs more tower rep
L79 Aura Monk - 1050/1123/765/936 ---> perhaps just a little bit more of every stat.
L77 Buff EV - 1043/1570/956/737
L74 Waller EV - 2077/323/460/144
L74 DPS Jester - 939/1606/398/344


It looks to me that you have some tiny holes in your roster, some of which I commented on already, the rest I'd say is ok as it is, specially the EVs.

I suggest that you try this
http://forums.trendyent.com/showthre...-NMHC-campaign

after you buff your stats just a sip, but, even as you are right now, try it on insane, as a way to practice building under a timer, the guide suggests building on 3 phases, at first it took me five waves or so, by now I have everything ready by the end of the second, so it can be done.

On another matter, I wouldn't lose that much sleep over not being able to beat the lost shards bosses, everyone at some point in the game had it a tough time beating the summit dragon. If you are missing weapons, don't be afraid to hit the stores, or the trade forums, when in doubt about anything, post it to the item check thread.

What you need is to remain focused on what you want to achieve, yes, you will be purchasing gear from afk stores, that doesn't mean you won't be gaining your own some day.

I beat each shard map for the first time with help, either from randoms or friends, that opened them up for survival, eventually, I gained enough ground to attempt the bosses on my own, and be successful.

If you need help I can dps and upgrade for you, which brings me to another piece of advise, when you get a good dps toon, get a djinnlet/genie, one important factor of success in campaign is how fast you can upgrade.

[Zenyatoo]

I bought this during the steam sale. And thus far in the past 2-3 weeks ive dumped 165 hours into it. So I guess ill share my experiences so far.

I played with a friend, me as a barbarian, him as an apprentice. We quickly blew threw the medium difficulty campaign. From there we leapt into the challenges, only to find that a few were actually doable for us. We were able to essentially jump a gap from medium -> insane by doing the warping core challenges, the armor reward allowed us to jump right into insane, which we completed with rapidity.

This is where we got stuck.
We went back and did all the challenges we could, from medium to insane difficulty where applicable (for example we beat ogre crush on insane, but couldnt manage say, assault pack 1-3 on anything above medium)

We discovered city in the cliffs, and were able to get beat it with a little help from some friends (who were actually lower geared than us. But as it turns out, having 3 extra hands to defend crystals from wyverns goes a long way)

However this jumped us to a rather high level without any gear. We then essentially got stuck trying to progress into nightmare. Quite literally the only way we managed to transition into it is by joining nightmare games already in progress, and either looting an upgrade here and there, and by obtaining the mana from it in order to buy higher end mythics.

Recently we've managed to get to about mid-level nightmare stuff. We could easily complete every non-boss campaign level. Alchemical was hard, throne room was easier, and summit we couldnt do alone. But we're reaching another sort of wall. Both of us are decked in high mythic to low trans, most of which we only got from kings game. We're both levels 80-90 on our characters, with a wide variety of builders. And while I cant speak for the gaps beyond trans, the one from insane -> nightmare is quite real.

The concern is, YES we did every level we could on insane, multiple times. We obtained neither the gear, nor the mana nessecary to break into nightmare. Nor did we particularly relish the concept of doing endless spires waves 1-3 over and over and over again. This is a tower defense game, not a korean MMO.


If I were to make suggestions to players looking to jump into nightmare
1. do city in the cliffs on medium, hard or insane (whichever you're comfortable with) in order to level up to ~70-74
2. Filter games on the custom list to nightmare only
3. Join nightmare survivals
4. repair/upgrade as directed
5. take the mana and buy mythics from player shops
6. Enjoy your new stats capable of lower end nightmare stuff


If I were to make suggestions to Trendy on how to better bridge the gap
1. Change some of the challenge rewards and possibly tweak their difficulties. Most people want to try the challenges after beating the campaign. It stands to reason that the rewards should at least be functional to the point of use again. Basically after being medium summit, a player should be able to reasonably tackle the original challenges on medium, which should give gear good enough to beat hard. And so on and so on such that the insane difficulty challenges reward lower end mythics
Pros: helps bridge gap. Challenge end rewards are moderate (only 1 piece per completion) meaning players would still need to work hard to get them
Cons: may require serious tweaking and testing (How hard is too hard? How strong/weak do rewards need to be to tackle the next campaign difficulty, ETC)

2. Increase mana rewards? I was speaking to a friend who asked me why I didnt have 20million for completing summit. I asked him what the heck he was talking about, I never got mana like that! It turns out, he had gotten 20million mana for beating summit during some christmas event or something? But basically that mana enabled him to buy 2 pieces of rather decent mythic gear. (100 upgrades, 200 in about 3 stats, ETC)
The idea would be that completing the campaign (deeper well -> summit [not glitterhelm]) would reward the player with a larger mana bonus. These bonuses would be additive and uh, I dont really know the word for it. But basically if you beat the campaign on easy, you'd get like 2mil, medium would get you 5mil, and then the 2mil from easy if you had NOT previously completed it on easy. Hard would be 10mil, and insane 20mil. Thus if you dived right into insane and beat it without having previously beaten the full campaign on a lower difficulty, you would receive 37million mana.
I believe this would help bridge the gap into nightmare, simply because if you're lucky/patient when searching player shops, 40million mana can buy you a full set of mythics, giving you 4+ stats near the 1000 range if youve got a decent weapon+pet already. This is about enough to really start tackling the original campaign on NM (at least in my experience) at the very least, youll probably make it to alchemical.

Pros: Enables players who have finished the campaign on insane to purchase mythic gear from other players in order to bridge the gap
Cons: Not a whole lot? 37million mana isnt about to flood the economy. (also the rewards would be 1 time only. I dont think I mentioned that) The only con would be that it might maybe allow some players who purchase wisely from player shops to bridge the gap into low end nightmare stuff faster, assuming you think that's a bad thing.


****ay for walls of text. But as a semi-new player who has spent 165 hours playing, and only really just started into nightmare stuff, well, these are my thoughts.

[Wethospu]

Game shouldn't revolve around player shops or grinding the same map way too many times.

[T@F]

Game shouldn't revolve around player shops or grinding the same map way too many times.

I agree.
The kings maps fixed that until the high end players started to cry.
The worst part is the map was not end game map,it was meant to be a bridge map for the adv players.

But the high end players seen it as a threat to there afk/paypal shops.
many of us have jobs ect ect,so no way we can put in tons of hours each week,the only ppl that can do that are the ones that do not work.
So while there claiming government money,they are prob also supporting themselves with the paypal shops.
And yet trendy is supporting them type of ppl.
I'm not saying all of them are,but i can bet there is a lot of them.

Come on trendy look at the general players and cater for them,not the ones who control the afk/paypal shops.
This game is meant to be fun,i can tell you now not many adv players are having fun since the shard mobs(copters/sharks) and stupid lvl difficultly.

[Carlh267]

I think one of the biggest reasons that so many people (myself included) have trouble making it past these progression walls is because there aren't any decent post-copter guides for newbies to get through nightmare. The only thing up right now is the breaking into nightmare guide, which shows you how to get your first myths, but after that its pretty much a guessing game as to how the progression actually goes. These sharing of experiences and strategies are exactly what the guides section needs- a post copter guide through nightmare which shows the progression curve and possible strategies to getting around it. I'd sorely appreciate one right now, and I'm guessing a lot of other players would too.

[beug]

I was in the same situation.
It's seems NM was made harder and harder after each shard patch.
Now any maps have these shard's mobs, making them really hard for breaking into nightmare.
Old players may have done them without copter, without djinn and without sharken, and it's makes a enormous difference.
i think it miss a new difficulty level for these high-end-players, or may be survival should take this role (new mobs appear after some wave).

For breaking into nightmare, i followed this order :
- some 1st wave of endles spike (some armor stuff)
- some challenge raining goblin (great app weapon)
- 2 or 3 times: challenge ogre crush (great monk weapon)
- a lots of challenge Halloween spookatular : i can't beat the last wave before i use a buff beam (from a lvl30 ev ) (iI used monk's auras, squire's walls and 1 harpon per cristal)

Nowadays I continue to farm halloween's map, i've got about 30-40mil per run, and some times good stuff.
And I just got about 1k on important tower's stats, nightmare campaign's maps are still really hard to beat.

[HKN]

I was in the same situation.
It's seems NM was made harder and harder after each shard patch.
Now any maps have these shard's mobs, making them really hard for breaking into nightmare.
Old players may have done them without copter, without djinn and without sharken, and it's makes a enormous difference.
i think it miss a new difficulty level for these high-end-players, or may be survival should take this role (new mobs appear after some wave).

For breaking into nightmare, i followed this order :
- some 1st wave of endles spike (some armor stuff)
- some challenge raining goblin (great app weapon)
- 2 or 3 times: challenge ogre crush (great monk weapon)
- a lots of challenge Halloween spookatular : i can't beat the last wave before i use a buff beam (from a lvl30 ev ) (iI used monk's auras, squire's walls and 1 harpon per cristal)

Nowadays I continue to farm halloween's map, i've got about 30-40mil per run, and some times good stuff.
And I just got about 1k on important tower's stats, nightmare campaign's maps are still really hard to beat.

Right now, endless spires its pretty much a no-go as first stop on nightmare.
Prior to djinns/sharks/copters, the first couple of aves was doable with godly gear, or even naked.
Right now, you get miserably crushed in the first wave by a 2m HP ogre & sharkens.

Right now is, magus quarters until your eyes bleed, and then, shard maps.

[Tang56]

after you buff your stats just a sip, but, even as you are right now, try it on insane, as a way to practice building under a timer, the guide suggests building on 3 phases, at first it took me five waves or so, by now I have everything ready by the end of the second, so it can be done.

I can already build under a timer and I have completed SC on insane HC, it's just the NM Sky City I haven't gotten past.

I admit I probably should move my app to tower, but it's proven hard to find tower sets with just about everything I pick up even in NMHC survival runs being junk. My aura monk is understated, be neglecting him of late.

It's not that I wouldn't love to get my toons into better gear, but the time investment required to do so is prohibitive.

Right now, endless spires its pretty much a no-go as first stop on nightmare.
Prior to djinns/sharks/copters, the first couple of aves was doable with godly gear, or even naked.
Right now, you get miserably crushed in the first wave by a 2m HP ogre & sharkens.

Right now is, magus quarters until your eyes bleed, and then, shard maps.

Wave 1 ES is possible in the godly gear from the insane campaign, since choppers were removed from wave 1, wave 2...is not.

[fulano]

Old players may have done them without copter, without djinn and without sharken, and it's makes a enormous difference.
i think it miss a new difficulty level for these high-end-players, or may be survival should take this role (new mobs appear after some wave).

There we go again with the old players had it easier bull****, it simply is not true.

Try dealing with djinn without summoners or evs or barbs or jesters, that's how old players had it.