Sharken Killing the Fun - Please Help!

[Kozmec]

No. I know you want people to agree, but the answer is no.

Sure, sharken add a new challenge to the game, but they are hardly game breaking. I want to address the complaints of Aqua first, so let me start there.

AQUA:

If you misplace defenses by even 1/8 of a trap activation radius, you're going to have a bad time. Stats DO matter, but placement will break a build of a person with 3k+ stats, so placement > stats. Stats, well, as I said they do still matter. 3k will definitely make it easier, but not a guaranteed win. This is how it should be. I think the game would have problems if it took only stats to win and nothing else. Aqua survival is the (current) final stage of the game, i.e. the HARDEST stage of the game. If you don't have 2k+, you don't belong here. That is just reality, and it's what everyone is dealing with. Personally, 2k stats got me into the very low wave 20s. 2.4k was enough to get me into the 22+ range (not winning yet, but better). 2.8k+ was where I started getting to the end, though not regularly by any means. 3k-3.5k makes it pretty easy, but you are still required to do some leg work to keep things up.

That is progression. That is the point of playing survival. That is how the game is designed and how it should be.

Complaining that a new mob breaks this somehow, is patently false. There are TONS of people doing this all the time, but is just simply not true. I started doing survival with Aqua (ran ONE misty to wave 21 prior to Shards 3), so don't try to pretend that I got where I am before sharken, cause I went from 1.8k to 3.5k in AQUA (meaning with sharken everywhere).

Now then, onto the OPs discussion re: Misty. Yes OP, Misty survival is doable. If you get past the first wave you run, at 600-800, that's GREAT! Just doing a wave or 3 should allow you to upgrade you're gear to better stats. Keep it up. As others have stated, you probably need to tweak you're build a bit to handle the sharken. For instance, a friend of mine keep dying in the mid 20s due to sharken pushing his east wall. During a run, I had him double the gas trap distance on that lane, and we finished the map without another wall push. 1 minor change took us from utter failure (cause obviously wave 24 is failing /sarcasm) to completing the map. Tweaking builds to fix issues is a big part of this game. Even "perfect" builds you find on the guides forum usually end up requiring tweaking.

Also, at 600-800, survival isn't the only place to find upgrades. While still in my early 1k stat levels, I was actively running monsterfests over survival, as the runs are faster and the gear drops waves 11+ will get you into the 1500-2k range (making subsequent survival easier). Just because "the best" gear comes from late wave survival, doesn't mean you should be able to get there with any stat level.

Progression is a requirement in all games, and my personal opinion is that DD makes it easier since gear can be moved around characters to where it is most effective. DD also has a good community, who are more then willing to help people out when they run into walls like you seem to be. I also realize that it sucks having a bunch of people leave on you, forcing you to go back out to make new friends in game. If they truly left due to the sharken, though, maybe after you've mastered this mob you can get these people to come back and teach them how to deal with 'em yourself!

[Vetokend]

Hey, guys. OP here. Sorry for posting and bailing, but I'm back from work and have had time to catch up.

Thanks for all the feedback! What a thread. I've looked at all the advice, and will work to increase my stats and try some of these alterations to my build.

I do still have a concern about the sharken, however. Several good points have been made on both sides of the fence, and I'll do my best to summarize what I've learned from reading.

I saw a post that really struck home for me, about "counters". Basically, some form of defense that's guaranteed to prevent some type of behavior. Sharken are indeed missing this. I know we all went nuts when the spiders came out, and again when the djinn came out, but it wasn't JUST us that changed, it was fine-tuning of the game that made it enjoyable again. I hope more of this is coming for sharken, because I feel there's some tweaking left to be done.

Right now, look at spiders. Remember how awful they used to be? Now, if spiders wreak havoc on our defenses we think, "damn, this choke point is webbed and needs more DPS, let's hope it holds out". Plus there's several ways to stop them, they're not so horrible anymore. Thank you summoner minions, for this one.

Then, Djinn.. even if by some insane rarity they get past the gas traps (if nothing is there to trigger the trap for it, then the djinn is likely taking full tower DPS anyway) and desummon a tower, it's a bummer, but it's just one tower. No big deal, plus I've not once had a tower desummoned since using gas traps - seems like an even trade for using 3 DU on each choke point, that I'd of never used before djinn. I paid the DU "toll", I can move on and enjoy.

Now, sharken (begin dark-sounding music). I toss in an ensnare, gas trap, inferno and/or proximity trap just to try and prevent ONE type of mob from pulling off their special attack, and it still doesn't work to any considerable level of reliability. Plus, the penalty is much greater than a spider and djinn - an entire choke point (multiple defenses) can be trashed. Those of you who have figured out the perfect build, I congratulate you and your dedication/skill, no sarcasm. I'm glad to hear that with enough persistence, this can be dealt with. It's motivating, I think.

However, can we agree that this a bit extreme? If I place a trap 1/8th of a trap radius (I heard that earlier) away from where it "should" be to prevent a sharken charge, should that equate to such random catastrophe? I think this is a bit too much.

I know I sound lazy, and I really don't want to AFK the map - but the reality is, I can't be in 5 places at once. These defenses, especially with how often ogres/sharken spawn, need to be self-reliant to some degree, right?

And I also know this is nightmare mode, it's supposed to be hard. But to me, feel free to disagree, there's a way to make content challenging in such a way that's fun. When I've taken so many precautions just for one mob type and they still plow me down, it really kicks me in the groin. It's a bad feeling - come on, I don't play this to get stressed out. Throw me a bone.

I really think there should be something reliable to use against sharken, a "counter" as a previous poster put it, without having to split pixels on our tower layouts. It's just one mob type - DU tax me into oblivion if you must. I'd sacrifice half my DU just to not have to think about these creatures ever again, truly.

Lastly, thanks to Trendy. Since I haven't played yet today, I'm cooled off. You're programmers, like me, and all you're trying to do is make a game that people enjoy.. a pretty damned noble goal, truth be told. I hope you take some of my ramblings to heart, and try to inject more of that DD-style fun into the game that I constantly crave.

Veto

[Alhanalem]

I like how the solution for a tower defense game to deal with Sharken some people came up with goes along the line of "don't use towers lol!". No honestly.

Dungeon Defenders isn't a Tower Defense game. It's a Dungeon Defense game. Traps and auras never were towers since the game came out, nor are EV beams. You have a wide range of tools at your disposal. If you make effective use of all of them, you can win difficult maps with suprisingly low stats. You don't necessarily have to use "no towers" to execute the strategy I offered- you simply have to situate them somewhere such that the enemies will be affected by your crowd control before they detect your towers.

Again, DunDef has had far more than just "towers" to defend with since it's original release. There are many ways to skin the cat- if your way isn't working then you need to try to find one that does work. The game beating you is not necessarily indicative of a balance flaw or broken mechanic.

If you want to beat a map with 20 harpoon towers or 40 magic missiles all over the place, feel free to. It's just going to require better stats or more work on your part than a carefully planned defense that uses defenses from multiple classes. Each class has something that compliments another class.

[davidnj7]

Dungeon Defenders isn't a Tower Defense game. It's a Dungeon Defense game. Traps and auras never were towers since the game came out, nor are EV beams. You have a wide range of tools at your disposal. If you make effective use of all of them, you can win difficult maps with suprisingly low stats. You don't necessarily have to use "no towers" to execute the strategy I offered- you simply have to situate them somewhere such that the enemies will be affected by your crowd control before they detect your towers.


Again, DunDef has had far more than just "towers" to defend with since it's original release. There are many ways to skin the cat- if your way isn't working then you need to try to find one that does work. The game beating you is not necessarily indicative of a balance flaw or broken mechanic.

If you want to beat a map with 20 harpoon towers or 40 magic missiles all over the place, feel free to. It's just going to require better stats or more work on your part than a carefully planned defense that uses defenses from multiple classes. Each class has something that compliments another class.

Truly poetic, and very much correct thank you

[Gamblor]

Greets

I use apprentice for my dps towers. I have had great success stopping sharken with the double gas lock.

These work as follows: strip all your equipment off your huntress, then cast two gas traps as close to each other as possible. Re-equip your gear, and their radius jumps to normal, with both traps largely overlapping each other. Keep one gas trap upgraded one more level than the other. Never upgrade them to the same level.

Sharken do not have elemental immunities and cannot resist gas. No darkness trap or strength drain necessary. Because the two gas traps are different upgrade levels, they have different durations. As one gas expires, the gas from the other is still operating and choking the sharken, The first gas triggers again, just before the second gas trap expires. This cycle repeats, with the offset in time slowly increasing. The sharken never, ever has a window where it is not choking to start a charge. Sometimes sharken even die on time expiry, without taking damage (if outside the curve of an electrical aura or inferno trap). This is why I call it a gas lock. I have had immense success with this.

Some may claim 6 DU is expensive for a gas choke, the DU could be used elsewhere. I don't agree. I don't have a problem with my walls or towers taking much damage, or not doing enough DPS (summoner minions help immensely with this) or killing trash quickly enough. I have alot of trouble with sharken instantly ending my game. The DU is worth it for a guaranteed counter to this.

I do not use double gas locks everywhere. If there is a corner, a single gas trap is usually good enough. If its not near a wall, its usually good enough. However there are notorious problem spots on misty, aqua, morrago and talay where double gas locks have absolutely solved my problem.

btw I tend to use magic missiles over fireball towers where I can get away with it to save DU. fireball tower is great for splashing mass groups, but since I rely on my double gas lock usually with an electrical aura or inferno trap to handle mass groups. MM is fine for single target DPS (especially supported by minion DPS). I would get rid of MM's too if I could, but they are great to tag ogres and make them derp behind walls, rather than swing at walls or minions on buff beams running perpendicular through and across walls.

[davidnj7]

I've honestly never heard of that before, and when i did i totally face palmed. why did i never think of that... lol. I've done similar things with auras, just never considered it with gas traps. Really interesting idea and concept i like it, i'll have to test it sometime for fun

[Grim indeed]

0.o... im confused
djinn buff enemies... which i find more annoying than a sharken charge ()
like djinn, gas makes them a sitting duck
like djinn you need dps to take them out (once a trap is reseting a djinn can just floaty out of there - into a defense blind spot and warp)

TBBed gas traps reset alot faster...

for most chokes i use a phys beam, TBB, gas, snare,lightning and SD

___ <phys
..|..<TBB
..O..<gas w/ auras in middle

TBB leading from phys beam to edge of gas, auras in middle of gas, and the only time i have sharken charges is when an ogre is in the way of my towers and ive placed a wall in the middle of the gas (as i do in aqua - northwest choke/spawn - to prevent mobs from going to the middle crystal), and even then only on mix, and rarely

[Warmonger]

djinn buff enemies... which i find more annoying than a sharken charge

Hmm? Since I use gas traps on every lane, the only enemies ever reaching the walls ae Ogres and DEWs. Since I use Summoner, DEWS are no longer a problem.

djinn can just floaty out of there - into a defense blind spot and warp

Defenses should never have a blind spot in first place. The only problem may be Djinn glitching into some wall and getting beyond reach, but you should have some DPS hero for this rare case.

The Gas Lock strategy is brilliant, but I don't need it, now, have 1900 trap reload speed :P. Would see the use when it was at 150, though :O

[Igniz12]

Man this brings back some bad memories. I remember the time when sharken were unleashed and for 3 weeks my desire to play the game kept falling day by day. Always, no matter what I did, my Misty run would fail like clockwork on waves 20-23. Then one day I said: screw this and started farming for seahorses on insane Aquanos. Once I had a good one I went and killed the Genie king and the Kraken on NM. Best damn decision I ever made. Without even trying I was rolling in armor and weapons soon after from Aquanos runs and I wasnt even reaching the late teens consistently. This was before the summoner was even released.

If you're stuck in misty and cant seem to progress no matter what you do then it might worth a try to either do runs on Moraggo or Aquanos. Misty is just too easy for sharken to charge through. The angles are usually near spawn gates and once they turn the corner, they have a straight line to your walls. The small map size dosent help either. If your traps and auras cannot kill them when they are coughing then you're in big trouble. You just cant expect your towers to pick up the slack from your auras/traps cause by wave 20+ they will get preoccupied with ogres 90% of the time and wont be able to kill sharken if they manage to get free.

Moraggo and Aquanos on the other hand can make sharken less of an issue cause they are bigger maps, moreso with Moraggo. The key to killing sharken(assuming your auras/traps cant get the job done) is to be able to space out your auras/traps far away from your walls but at the same time not so far that djinn can desummon them without fear of getting nuked. The idea is that if a sharken gets free then at least it has a fair distance to travel before it can charge and allowing your towers to maybe get them before they do. Its hard to explain all the pros and cons of doing Moraggo and Aquanos over Misty without laying down a wall of text but the gist of it is that the map layouts give you more options to deal with sharken while Misty is limited due to the size and more importantly the layout.

Another tip is to always make sure you use an ensnare with your gas traps. I cannot stress enough how much of a difference that makes. When I was doing Aquanos runs, sharken from SE spawn gate approaching the forge would get through regularly. So I decided to place a ensnare together with a: Gas trap, fire trap and electric aura. It clearly made a difference cause I was not getting anymore sharken getting through again. The idea is to slow down the sharken so that the electric aura can maybe take at least a quarter of their HP down and when they get into the middle the fire trap kicks in and kills them off. If it dosent then the sharken is still slowed by the ensnare and the gas fires off after cooldown time and traps the sharken again. Same principle as dual gas traps but for me personally I feel much better knowing I have a ensnare in lane, feel so exposed otherwise.

[Grim indeed]

Hmm? Since I use gas traps on every lane, the only enemies ever reaching the walls ae Ogres and DEWs. Since I use Summoner, DEWS are no longer a problem.

()

referencing NMHCmix aqua surv... a sharken charge is rebuildable, a goldfish gets through and its game over

Defenses should never head a blind spot in first place.

exactly, if sharken are a problem then the build has a blind spot, meaning that the build sucks/the builder needs better stats/a DPS needs to be assigned to the lane