* Massive global reduction in enemy spawn count scaling based on number of players.

[zingfharn]

Why do you assume that "saving layout" has to mean "not playing the game". Half of my setup time is spent getting defenses placed in just the right spot relative to EV defenses (which has to be done in a specific order most of the time). Placing the same harpoon 6 times so that my second harpoon can fit next to it on the same buff beam is not what I consider to be quality time spent.

I used to do this a lot. Did my head right in. Although it seems counter-intuitive, try putting the harps down first. If you know the harps are as close as they can be, fitting the buff around them is much easier.

[Cymmina]

I used to do this a lot. Did my head right in. Although it seems counter-intuitive, try putting the harps down first. If you know the harps are as close as they can be, fitting the buff around them is much easier.

I'm not looking for your advice, I'm presenting examples. If I'm doing campaign/challenges (or survival for the first time on that map), I don't have the luxury of building in the order that makes them easier to place, I have to build in the order that makes me not lose. If that requires auras > buff beams > combat phase > harpoons > etc., I can't very well place the harpoons first, now can I?

[zingfharn]

If I'm on a timed build, buffs are the very last thing I put down. I need firepower first and foremost. A buff that isn't buffing anything except auras isn't going to hold against ogres very well. Whereas at least a harp will draw some aggro and get them away from the crystals.

As for survival, whether it's the first or 100th time I'm doing it, since there's no timer, I can build in any order I like. And if it's less than the 20th time, I'm probably still trying out new things, so there's no particular order.

But, you know, each to their own. Just seems like a pretty bad example.

[oldbrokenlink]

7:30 pm est

any news when it's going out?

even if it does go out at this time there is valve time which most likely means it won't be released to us today

[fulano]

People, people, one step at a time, in a high wave on a misty survival game, with 2 player the mob count is 1400ish, if a third player joins it skyrockets to more than 3800, that's just silly. I'm sure there will be space to balance it if it gets too easy, as long as we don't get nerfed further, but right now I'm all for lower mob counts in co-op games.

8+ hours (for a full 30 wave survival) of grinding is just stupid.

[Peanut Noir]

You do know that loot stops dropping after a certain amount is on the floor, right? That means after appx. 1-2k mobs, you have the max loot sitting on the floor, and all the new stuff is just replacing the old stuff. Shouldn't be a problem.

[zingfharn]

Yes. We know that. Try reading the whole thread...

[mrmisterwaa]

You do know that loot stops dropping after a certain amount is on the floor, right? That means after appx. 1-2k mobs, you have the max loot sitting on the floor, and all the new stuff is just replacing the bad old stuff. Shouldn't be a problem.

Fix'd.

[Jason Begley]

you guys want whining stopped?
sadly people are ALWAYS going to grope and whine.

but.. heres the skinny.

As stated.. you have a cap of what items can be dropped on the ground at any one time.
this cap will be achieved in a 4 player match at about 1k mobs.
from there.. the lowest quality item gets replaced with what drops of better quality... the item that vanishes is gone forever.
everyone knows this... well most do.

Old unit cap. 6000 mobs... vs new cap 3000 mobs....
YES.. because of the extra 3000 mobs... for the 6 cap.. there will be 3000 extra dice rolls for random loot to improve the quality of the end drop for THAT round... meaning when comparing the 3k loot total.. vs the 6k loot total.. the 6k will clearly grant more mana.
BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this comes at the cost at extra time.
You can run that same wave of 3k.. TWICE in the SAME time you take to do the 6k... this means being your running two waves to the previos versions one wave.. your selling TWICE the ammount of drops.. in the same time. this alone easily ballances out what little gain you will get from the other 3000 random rolls that get deleted... and has the potential to even make your mana game per hour even higher then before.

being 90% of your EXP comes from end of round time bonuses.. double your rounds per hour also doubles your exp intake.

as for setup times.. yes you have to do it twice as often now. but your already afk pratically the entire time. your still going to be AFK... you really whining about having to play the game a lil bit more of a day just to get your loot? o.O

the point of this.. fix/tweak.. is that theres such an exponential ramp in long term units per player.. that it needlessly drags the game out for those that DO "play" the game... and dont AFK all the time. late waves.. ogres stop spawning at about 2000-2500 enemies.. this leaves the remaining 4000 units at long rounds to be a slow.. pointless trickle that is only 20% as dangerous as the origional statrting 2000...ask any survival player.. you survival that first 2k.. and the ogres stop spawning.. the rest of the round is a cakewalk. this means the rest of the round.. no longer a threat.. is a waste of time and patience.

active people shoudlent have to wait 15+ minutes for that... trickle.. to finish out.

remember.. survival USED to take 20+ hours.. then got dropped to 8.. they are still tweaking it thankfully..
but still has some ways to go... and they are moving int he right direction.
after that ogre time has passed.. the round becomes a chore.
more players need to add more unit health..a fraction more damage.. and an increase in how many spawn at once.. NOT a huge increase in total units over time.


think of survival like a sink with the faucet on.
the waters constnatly flowing into the sink.. but the drain is open.. and the water effortly flows through.. it could be 5 minutes.. it could be 5 hours... still all goes effortlessly down the drain.
start throwing food.. and other things in the drain to clog it... and the sink starts to fill...
sink gets half full.. then the waters pressure gets cut to half..'aka ogres stop spawning'.. and with the lessened pressure.. the sink returns to normal draining levels.
more people.. will clean that sink faster.. thus to pose more of a threat.. more food has to be tossed in at once.
or increase the water pressure.. so the sink fills faster.
deciding to leave the pressure at a constant.. managable rate.. for twice as long.. is still.. managable.

simply put.. more units per round.. does NOT make.. a larger threat.

[zingfharn]

No. Never said it. Just that it does increase time to play.
You're forgetting the breaks between waves, which add an extra hour or so per run (because having cleared the wave, you want to actually look at the loot) and people leaving to do real-life stuff for a minute or three. It all adds up.

The key part here is less rolls, so less good loot. RNG hates me, that's a fact. But I've seen very little good quality loot since the change.