Does the Apprentice need a buff to keep up?

[lordinario]

I would not increase tower damage for App.
What i would do is make Fireballs cost 1 less DU
so basically for each 2 harps you could put 3 FB...

That will give you a choice.
Also App would be more versatile... you can put 2 FB on one entry and 1 on the other while with squire you would have only 1 option.

That would be nice.

[Grim indeed]

Also, im having dificulties finding in the patch notes ANY squire tower nerfs...
I am rather tired at this point but I've read as far down as this with no nerfs in sight

it was in with the easter/portalmk2 patch
squires were supposedly getting twice the NM buff they shouldve been getting (on all towers, not just harps)

I would not increase tower damage for App.
What i would do is make Fireballs cost 1 less DU
so basically for each 2 harps you could put 3 FB...

i like this idea... kinda, but would like to see something done about other towers too (MM/DST/LT)

[ZombieGirl]

Squires are capable of soloing the campaign because of one main reason, all of their placements deal physical damage, not elemental. The apprentice must expend a greater amount of DU than the squire in order to have all angles covered. The harpoon could have its damage nerfed into the ground and it'd still be used over fireball turrets because of that.

Take a look at the apprentice's arsenal of defensive placements and ask yourself this: What, in the apprentice's arsenal, does he do that none of the other classes can do better?

Forcefield > mage barrier
harpoon > fireball
Lightning Aura > Lightning Tower
Archer/Mage > MM/DST

So where exactly is the apprentice supposed to shine? This is the problem that the devs need to address, not nerfing every class that can do it better than him. They need to make at least something from the apprentice desirable. I do not believe the apprentice will ever receive a revamp to all of his towers to make them all more desirable than the aforementioned alternatives, nor should he. This game is designed for taking advantage of multiple heros and the forms of support/defense they offer one another. However i do feel the apprentice should have at least one or two things that make a player stop and consider using them instead of one of the currently superior alternative choices.

[rorac]

Electric Tower - I don't know about you guys, but I find this tower worthless in almost every build. I don't know if this is true for everyone, so I am not going to suggest anything for this. (Because I barely use it.) )

Just for fun a friend and I played Foundries on NM Insane MMHC and he put up tons of MM towers and a single lightning tower. The lightning tower had more than 5x the kills of all MM towers combined after 25 waves. They're VERY useful. The can go through walls/obstacles, hit many enemies at once (each time increasing its AOE) and it can stun enemies for seconds at a time. Never leave home without one.

[Grim indeed]

Also, im having dificulties finding in the patch notes ANY squire tower nerfs...

7.26
* Added Penny Arcade Characters DLC
* Added Squire Bunny & Easter Egg Hunt Meta-Mission
* Increased Maximum Number of Heroes allowed on a profile from 16 to 24
* Raised Soft Mana Cap & Shop Item Sell Limit to 400,000,000
* EV Shock (3min/7max to 2min/6max) and Proto Beam (3min/6max to 2min/5max) DU costs decreased, EV Shock Beam Resets 33% faster, shock time ramp increased 33%, and has a 33% area increase
* "Portal Gun Mk 2" is given to owners of Portal Gun DLC who earn Hardcore Mythical Defender Achievement
* "Sky o' Love" Gender Enemies will no longer target Eternia Crystals
* Buffed Monk/Initiate DPS Ramp by 25%, high-end Monks & Initiates will do about 45% more damage, and HeroBoost/TowerBoost effectiveness ramps by 33%
* ToggleHUD button (default H) in First Person View will first toggle FPV weapon visibility on/off
* Fixed "non-attenuated" (2D) Amazonian costume swing sound, now is 3D
* Fixed Shroomite Pets not awarding at NM quality on Mistymire Forest
* Series EV 15% Higher Proton Beam Damage Exponent Buff, 15% Decoy Aggro Buff & 25% Decoy HP Buff
* Made Series EV Walls properly repairable/upgradeable when within a Trap/Aura
* "Rumble in the Jungle"/"War of the Djinn" no longer have Djinn exiting the Lamps super-fast.
* Barbarian Turtle Stance resistance now increases with the Turtle Stance level
* SeriesEV Proton Charge Blast Mana Absorption range increased by 175%
* Fixed bug that was erroneously giving Squire Tower 60% extra damage in Nightmare (37.5% reduction)
* Reduced # of Ogres in Survival Nightmare by 40%
* Mythical & Transcendent gear now always have distinctive minimap icon colors: Turquoise for Mythical, purple for Transcendent


somehow found myself looking at old patch notes Ctrl+F'd 'egg' and voila

[Xjphantom]

7.26
* Added Penny Arcade Characters DLC
* Added Squire Bunny & Easter Egg Hunt Meta-Mission
* Increased Maximum Number of Heroes allowed on a profile from 16 to 24
* Raised Soft Mana Cap & Shop Item Sell Limit to 400,000,000
* EV Shock (3min/7max to 2min/6max) and Proto Beam (3min/6max to 2min/5max) DU costs decreased, EV Shock Beam Resets 33% faster, shock time ramp increased 33%, and has a 33% area increase
* "Portal Gun Mk 2" is given to owners of Portal Gun DLC who earn Hardcore Mythical Defender Achievement
* "Sky o' Love" Gender Enemies will no longer target Eternia Crystals
* Buffed Monk/Initiate DPS Ramp by 25%, high-end Monks & Initiates will do about 45% more damage, and HeroBoost/TowerBoost effectiveness ramps by 33%
* ToggleHUD button (default H) in First Person View will first toggle FPV weapon visibility on/off
* Fixed "non-attenuated" (2D) Amazonian costume swing sound, now is 3D
* Fixed Shroomite Pets not awarding at NM quality on Mistymire Forest
* Series EV 15% Higher Proton Beam Damage Exponent Buff, 15% Decoy Aggro Buff & 25% Decoy HP Buff
* Made Series EV Walls properly repairable/upgradeable when within a Trap/Aura
* "Rumble in the Jungle"/"War of the Djinn" no longer have Djinn exiting the Lamps super-fast.
* Barbarian Turtle Stance resistance now increases with the Turtle Stance level
* SeriesEV Proton Charge Blast Mana Absorption range increased by 175%
* Fixed bug that was erroneously giving Squire Tower 60% extra damage in Nightmare (37.5% reduction)
* Reduced # of Ogres in Survival Nightmare by 40%
* Mythical & Transcendent gear now always have distinctive minimap icon colors: Turquoise for Mythical, purple for Transcendent


somehow found myself looking at old patch notes Ctrl+F'd 'egg' and voila

That...realy doesnt sound like a nerf to me.
its too specific on it being HC mode to be a nerf (likely they miscoded the damage ramp for the harpoon when they set the HC mode up)
Also

Squires are capable of soloing the campaign because of one main reason, all of their placements deal physical damage, not elemental. The apprentice must expend a greater amount of DU than the squire in order to have all angles covered. The harpoon could have its damage nerfed into the ground and it'd still be used over fireball turrets because of that.

Take a look at the apprentice's arsenal of defensive placements and ask yourself this: What, in the apprentice's arsenal, does he do that none of the other classes can do better?

Forcefield > mage barrier
harpoon > fireball
Lightning Aura > Lightning Tower
Archer/Mage > MM/DST

So where exactly is the apprentice supposed to shine? This is the problem that the devs need to address, not nerfing every class that can do it better than him. They need to make at least something from the apprentice desirable. I do not believe the apprentice will ever receive a revamp to all of his towers to make them all more desirable than the aforementioned alternatives, nor should he. This game is designed for taking advantage of multiple heros and the forms of support/defense they offer one another. However i do feel the apprentice should have at least one or two things that make a player stop and consider using them instead of one of the currently superior alternative choices.

The problem is, you are right. Thats why i was more prone (after i had cooled off) to go for modifying the app's towers than a nerf to squires. will go and add to first post that im not looking to nerf squires anymore, as most people arn't going to read the entire forum.

[Typhlosion]

Squires are capable of soloing the campaign because of one main reason, all of their placements deal physical damage, not elemental. The apprentice must expend a greater amount of DU than the squire in order to have all angles covered. The harpoon could have its damage nerfed into the ground and it'd still be used over fireball turrets because of that.

Take a look at the apprentice's arsenal of defensive placements and ask yourself this: What, in the apprentice's arsenal, does he do that none of the other classes can do better?

Forcefield > mage barrier
harpoon > fireball
Lightning Aura > Lightning Tower
Archer/Mage > MM/DST

So where exactly is the apprentice supposed to shine? This is the problem that the devs need to address, not nerfing every class that can do it better than him. They need to make at least something from the apprentice desirable. I do not believe the apprentice will ever receive a revamp to all of his towers to make them all more desirable than the aforementioned alternatives, nor should he. This game is designed for taking advantage of multiple heros and the forms of support/defense they offer one another. However i do feel the apprentice should have at least one or two things that make a player stop and consider using them instead of one of the currently superior alternative choices.

"So where exactly is the apprentice supposed to shine?"

Well? I would like to know what you guys think the Apprentice should shine at...

[Grim indeed]

That...realy doesnt sound like a nerf to me.
its too specific on it being HC mode to be a nerf (likely they miscoded the damage ramp for the harpoon when they set the HC mode up)

not harpoons, every squire tower and NM
yes it was a 'fix' but most players still considered it a nerf

Well? I would like to know what you guys think the Apprentice should shine at...

spiffy hat wearing.

...
oh wait... he does

[Xjphantom]

"So where exactly is the apprentice supposed to shine?"

Well? I would like to know what you guys think the Apprentice should shine at...

Other than the EPIC hat...and overcharge/instant upgrade.....nothing, thats the problem
(props to grim for remembering the hat, i would've forgot about it)

[Typhlosion]

Other than the EPIC hat...and overcharge/instant upgrade.....nothing, thats the problem
(props to grim for remembering the hat, i would've forgot about it)

I wasn't clear, let's say you where the person who was making the final decisions on the apprentice buffs, What would YOU do and how would YOU make them shine?