Paid for DD + shard DLC, but game is now useless

[fulano]

Go look in the history on the guides section. Most of the builds for Misty (and some of the morago ones as well though morago in general benefits from more players given its size) pre EV still work, as long as they include gas traps. Its been stated, you can provide ALL the functions of the EV within the mechanics of the base game. Other characters provide walls that are either cheaper in DU or have more HP, and if your towers are not doing enough damage you have some wonderful options. First you can just run an app guard, or you could run a monk with a hunt guard providing a massive boost to fire power.

Yes the later waves of survival require some form of damage boost in order to take out ogres and prevent defenses from being swarmed under. The game provides a number of ways to do this (almost all of which were around and used pre EV)

Means of boosting tower damage output-

-App guardians (included in base game)

-Huntress guardians (included in base game)

-Monk tower boost (included in base game)

-EV buff beams (Optional DLC)

-Other players (FREE)


I am sorry that your inability to adapt and adjust is ruining your experience in this game. Many players have suggested potential solutions to your inability to progress, and as i and others have mentioned there are still guides in the guides section, you can dig them up and work with them. If you would like help figuring out exactly why your builds and set ups are failing, please see my earlier post and provide us with the specs for your builders and the build/builds you are attempting. What waves are you making it do and what is causing the fail (ogres/sharks/gins/trash mobs)? ALL of these issues have counters within the base game mechanics, they may be more hands on counters then the EV provides but they exist and are quite effective.

Ok, just reviewed 20 pages of posts on the guides forum and I see no EV free builds for misty, do I need to go back even further? if you could link me to one I would be very much interested in trying it.

Please realize that this is not a failure to adapt, the game itself is not working as it's supposed to be, the gas traps for example are no longer doing that much of a good job at stopping sharken or djinns.

That said, thanks for contributing to the discussion in a civilized manner.

EDIT
Correction, found this one
http://forums.trendyent.com/showthre...to-4man-layout.

which says "I managed to solo to wave 20 with 1200/1800/800/1100 . 13 to 19 was very easy."

Well, I'm already doing that. That's were I digress with the rest, I say that it's finishing it that needs EV/Summ, not just playing it.

[Kruntski]

I'm done with this discussion.

Because you've been caught out.. You said the game was winnable without the EV. I was curious how you came to that conclusion and asked for some evidence. I thought it would be really easy for you to answer if it was true. Instead all you do is offer counter arguments, personal attacks and avoid the question. Try to be more helpful next discussion. Thank you very much.

[sandbagr]

Oh boy oh boy, this again!
I know all of you have been waiting for me to weigh in on this since I was the main protagonist of a similar post a while back.
I don't agree with Vesper at all but I love his/her name and Joel Hodgson is a god.

Yea, the OP is right. The EV is absolutely essential to acquire end game gear. Sure that EV can belong to another person that you only play with online, but you have to have it.

I am sure people will say "No you don't", but it's like arguring over religion or with a drunk... or both. It's pointless People have their beliefs and will not be swayed no matter the evidence. *btw. that checking the guides was inspirational!*

I have no problem with needing the EV or paying extra for added content. I would pay 3x as much and not complain. (about the cost, anyhow) I am just saying the OP is right. The EV is an essential part of every successful high level build.
Summoner... ummm... a detriment? never mind. that's a new thread.

You're Welcome!

[deathsythe]

most of you forget that when squire was OP (before EV) they had the chance to farm high end myth gear, (and also, alot of cheaters boosting one another), when EV came out squire got nerved, but those guys still had high end myth gear...

leaving noobs with a huge gap of progression.

all of you that say 'i can build whatever i want with any char without EV' just have high end myth gear that they farmed or bought during the buffed squires/mages period.
no way you could progress from level 0 (when squire got nerved) till 78 without help from OP chars or cheaters, or an EV.

i've been in that situation, have the game played for almost 600 hours and most of the gear i got was just because some OP char joined a public session (probably even hacked gear) and even that gear that i looted wasnt good enough to progress decently.

when i finally managed (upgraded) my gear up to some 1k stats, my building squire got nerved, so all my chars were pretty useless for farming high end waves.

(and that was before the monk got some buffs, monks are insane powerful, when used with -here it comes- buff beams).

tl;dr

when you played this game at the right moment (buffed original char's like squire and no djinns), you could easily farm high end gear that removes the huge gap of progression.

[Darkman_0]

i've been in that situation, have the game played for almost 600 hours and most of the gear i got was just because some OP char joined a public session (probably even hacked gear) and even that gear that i looted wasnt good enough to progress decently.

when i finally managed (upgraded) my gear up to some 1k stats, my building squire got nerved, so all my chars were pretty useless for farming high end waves.

Yet apprentice got buffed a little, as well as monk auras (electric aura damage). I've found most of my gear solo, but before EV I did need to duo to get anywhere. That was just the name of the game back then. Double guardian, or being able to repair in two places at the same time was key. Most maps are, in fact, still easier when you don't solo them.

(and that was before the monk got some buffs, monks are insane powerful, when used with -here it comes- buff beams).

Or without buff beams, ofcourse. The only perk monks have with buff beams is that their tower buff stacks. It's also insanely powerful with guardians, since they stack with those.

[/quote]when you played this game at the right moment (buffed original char's like squire and no djinns), you could easily farm high end gear that removes the huge gap of progression.[/QUOTE]

For a while, there had been djinn, but no series EV. People were beating both shards maps at the time without EV. Most people who were that high end also reported not having too much trouble with sharken. Just saying. Also, while the apprentice got nerfed (a LONG time back) and the squire got both buffed and nerfed back, there's been more changes than just those. The dps pet damage increase, the overall damage nerf, the specific dark elf damage nerf, stuff like that.

What we've got here is a discussion with both sides asking for proof, yet nobody actually bothering to provide "adequate" proof. Nobody proved the EV is necessary, and nobody played a high level survival without EV yet. And that's just fine, but don't assume other people are idiots just because they disagree with you.

Either way, I think I've made it plausible that EV isn't completely necessary to progress in survival mode, you're welcome to disagree.

Oh and:

Because you've been caught out.. You said the game was winnable without the EV. I was curious how you came to that conclusion and asked for some evidence. I thought it would be really easy for you to answer if it was true. Instead all you do is offer counter arguments, personal attacks and avoid the question. Try to be more helpful next discussion. Thank you very much.

That's just a very annoying thing to say. This thread has gone on for eight pages, things have been repeated into oblivion. People have done nothing but throw around arguments and counterarguments. Please don't be the guy who thinks he won an argument just because the other guy got bored.

Also, providing proof you don't need an EV is quite tedious. You need to figure out a build you're never going to use, which takes a lot of attempts to get right, just to provide proof toward people who will then start to criticize your stats.

[hippyjoe2004]

Maybe you should read my post more carefully
Where have i stated that i am entitled to get FREE stuff?
However i am entitled to voice my opinion, if its of positive or negative nature doesnt matter really.

I read your post. I read the whole darn thread. No need to try and be a smartarse.
You want a constructive reply?

Your argument is that Trendy is excluding players from CORE content.

That is incorrect. There's no grey area here, that comment is false.

The core content consists of the vanilla game, with only easy-insane difficulty settings. With four characters.
Look up the game page on steam. That description is the core content.

Insane campaign can be basically slept through with any of the four base characters.
Insane survival gets tougher, as has been brought up in this thread there is a wall to climb, but it CAN be done. EV makes it easier, granted, but the CORE characters can complete ALL of the core content. It just takes a bit more grinding.
Though I'd like you to consider that the scariest thing you have to deal with in a core game is an ogre which will derp at a wall all day long anyway.

So no, Trendy isn't excluding players from ANY core content, a "casual player who doesn't want to purchase all the DLC" is unlikely to give a damn about doing survival at all - if they have no intention of buying dlc it's unlikely they care about getting OMGÜBER end-game gear anyway.

Off-topic: An idea I did like though - making vanilla maps go past wave 25. I'd love to see an endless survival mode come out.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[VonCrown]

they did a bunch of nerfs to the squire and the guardians plus added new foes to make the ev needed
they also only drop the best loot on the newest dlc maps at the same time dropping the quality on the loot on all the older maps when one is released
what have you bought from me lately seems to be their only motive so yah pay to win

Oh, yes, the addition of the dreaded djinn and sharken, making it impossible to win without the series EV's gas traps. Wait, what?

If you're having a hard time progressing, grind out some mana to start and learn to play the market game. I pretty much never find worthwhile upgrades to my gear on the ground, but I have no trouble finding them in shops. And as it so happens there are also people who -buy- things in shops, too. This game actually has a pretty healthy economy, all told.

Series EV is really never more than the cherry on top of a build. That anyone thinks you can't win without it boggles my mind. Set up a good traptress and aura monk. I can only assume you're trying to build with squire/apprentice only.

This is all coming from someone who is far from crazy hardcore endgame, by the way. I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle third of the nightmare endgame progression, most of my builder stats are in the 700-1000 range or so. And you know what? I borke into nightmare -after- sharken were released.

And don't say series EV makes sharken beatable. That makes no sense whatsoever. Gas traps.

[Kruntski]

People have done nothing but throw around arguments and counterarguments. Please don't be the guy who thinks he won an argument just because the other guy got bored.

Actually I'm not arguing anything. I just asked for proof the EV is not required to win the game. But don't let that stop you from trolling.

Also, providing proof you don't need an EV is quite tedious. You need to figure out a build you're never going to use, which takes a lot of attempts to get right, just to provide proof toward people who will then start to criticize your stats.

Here we go again, excuses, excuses, excuses. Too much work. People will criticise my stats. blah blah blah. Yet another round of beating around the bush, counter arguments and excuses. And so the mystery of can you beat the game without an EV is still not solved.

[Kruntski]

If you're having a hard time progressing, grind out some mana to start and learn to play the market game. I pretty much never find worthwhile upgrades to my gear on the ground, but I have no trouble finding them in shops. And as it so happens there are also people who -buy- things in shops, too. This game actually has a pretty healthy economy, all told.

....

This is all coming from someone who is far from crazy hardcore endgame, by the way. I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle third of the nightmare endgame progression, most of my builder stats are in the 700-1000 range or so. And you know what? I borke into nightmare -after- sharken were released.

You realise that we're talking about completing any map solo on NM HC MM Survival without the EV. That's quite a different game from where you are now.

[zingfharn]

You just made a good statement that kinda agrees with the OP
Its not P2W, but its definitely a way to say - hey, cant progress anymore? go and buy some nice DLC from us!

Wanna get some nice Myth armor and weapons? - buy shard maps DLC - ALL OF THEM!
Wanna get a nice monk weapon? - buy Spooktacular DLC
Wanna get a nice Squire weapon? - buy holiday DLC
Wanna have an easier time progressing? - buy EV DLC
Wanna have highend loot? - Buy city in the cliffs DLC
Wanna get some more armor drops? - Buy Summoner DLC

This offends me in its wrongness.
Highend loot is NOT from cliffs. The best monk and squire weapons are NOT from spook or holiday DLC.

All of these things come from shards. Shards has the best drops because it's the hardest maps. Plus, it has loldrops, which mean on wave 15, you can find better myth items than the supremes which drop on cliffs 30. Yes. That's still DLC that you need to buy, but it's far from all the ones you list.

Of course paying for the EV or summoner is going to make the game easier. Why else would you buy it? If it's not a new map, then it's a new character. And why would I pay for a character that doesn't make my life easier? They either add interesting new aspect or they don't. And if they don't, then no-one is going to buy them. That's simple common sense.

Why is all the good loot only dropping on DLC maps?
Most certainly not because they are harder, but because TE wants you to buy DLCs.

asdkljas i asdkjasdlkj auiaiosudasd. That's the sound of me unable to speak, because you're so frustrating.
It IS because they're harder. Summit is easy. Misty is not.

Wave 25 royal gardens is mos def NOT easier than wave 14 of misty or aquanos

Yes it is, if you have a solid build. Royal gardens needs careful walling, but that's it.

Even if this wasnt the case, just make vanilla maps go over wave 25 and make them hard, real hard - of course with the addition on better loot.

/facepalm
What do you think hardcore mixmode is?

DD has nowhere near the fan- or playerbase to compete with those AAA titles.

Except 6 months after release, it's still in the top 20 played games on steam. And until about a month ago, it was in the top 10 most of the time. And they've sold a million units, which is more than a lot of titles ever manage. So, erm, wrong again.
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

How many times have you seen them fall into your gas trap and in between triggers waking up already in charge mode, bye bye defenses.

I read something in the console guides section a while back from a guy who doesn't have an EV. He uses double-gas, one at 3 star, one at one star. They run out at different times, and so are always triggered. Just because you didn't work out the solution, doesn't mean there isn't one. Plus, Sharken have comparatively low hit points. If you're playing solo, then you're going to need to have a DPS character active to deal with the 30m+ HP ogres. Taking down a 750k sharken shouldn't really be a problem if you can handle them.

the thing is, if your harps are buffed the ogres they will go down faster before finding that magical crack in your walls, a must if the ogre was 30million health.

No. A monk is a must. Tower boost, or hero boost + seahorse, or both. My 150 seapony can out-dps every tower. With ogres, though, you want to be aggroing them and keeping them faced away from the walls. That's the easiest way to stop the walls taking damage.

I think the point that most people here are missing is one of time.
If you are serious about end game NM survival, then you're at a point where the ONLY thing you are doing is farming gear to farm gear. There are no achievements for completing shards on survival. There's no benefit other than to get better gear, so you can farm a little faster, to get better gear. I do it, but I freely admit it is the most pointless activity in the world.

Regardless, if you're at this stage, you're likely in the 200 hour+ club. so you've paid your 30 bucks for 200 hours. That's a little over 10c per hour. Which is remarkably good value for money.
By the time you finish up farming SV, you are very likely to be in the 500+ club. Paying $4 for 300 hours play works out at just over a cent an hour. If there is a game that offers better value, I don't know it.
Yes yes. You paid $15 already for the game, and $15 for shards. Well done. You can complete those on easy-insane without an EV VERY easily, and on nightmare with some creative thinking (see above).
But stop for a moment. You are obviously very much in love with this game or you wouldn't be posting, so pony up the cash and get on with playing.
If you're 12 years old and your parents control your budget, then go and get a paper round/washing dishes at a diner/doing odd jobs for a neighbour/wash dad's car/do the laundry/wash the dishes/mop the floors/babysit/show some god damn initiative.
And if you're not 12, then in the time it's taken you to get enraged, write this, read all the replies, get more enraged, furiously smash the keyboard with replies and so forth, you could have earned $4 many times over, even on minimum wage. If you are struggling for money because your job pays badly, then get another job. You clearly have the free time. And it sounds like it would be good for you to get out of the house anyway.