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Dungeon Defenders II game Status:
03-29-2012, 12:46 PM
Lead Community Manager
[Official] CTF PvP Map Discussion and Feedback
*The map is currently released in ALPHA State*
The map is a 16 player, 8 vs 8 style capture and hold the flag match. There's 2 teams that battle it out for control of the flag in order to win.
TE has noted they have rebalanced the pvp aspect but its still an alpha! This means there will be unbalanced aspects to the map but they are working to fix it and get a good feel for even more pvp maps and modes >=]
Pvp uses your normal geared characters with different temporary balances.
There are no specs or respecs, what you bring in us what you use >=] You can use.the tavernkeep to respect like normal.
Each team meeds to collects points to win. You get 1 point every second you hold the flag. You get 1 point each kill. The difficulty sets the total points needed to win.
Easy - 100pts
Medium - 250pts
Hard - 500pts
Insane - 1000pts
Games last from 10mins to 1 hour on Insane.
The flag slows the holder down.
It takes about 5 seconds to pick the flag up making the user vulnerable.
Pets do not work in PvP. Ie. They do not attack or boost towers.
Currently these towers do nothing:
Monk - Enrage Aura
Huntress - Dark and Slow Traps
Apprentice - Barricade (has hp but doesn't remove resistances)
That's all for now!
I would like to know where to post for wanting to keep the CTD around, if this is the place then, even though I don't have PC I would enjoy the fact that you guys could develop a well-balanced pvp game mode and include it on consoles or maybe someday, A well-supported (console & pc DD2).
PvP Tweaks/Gameplay Fixes/Additions & Ideas
Hello, I've been playing around with your pvp and I've been trying to figure out ways to help balance the game, get new game modes in to the pvp that are balanced and well rounded as well as making new additions to the current modes you already have.
I've been modding for 16 years and have come across balances that work, even if I don't agree with them. I have to keep an open mind and listen to what others say if it works very well even though I may have opinions I consider better. It's all about balance no matter which way you look at it. That being said, I did some tweaks and testing with a tester and a friend of mine and we came up with quite a lot of information to pass your way to help make PvP a better overall experience with deeper game play mechanics than:
-Get good gear.
-Get high resistance.
-Kill everyone worse off than myself.
As we find out more and do additional testing and tweaks, we may update this post with [Edited] above the section we edit or add more information to, so don't forget about us! We haven't forgotten about you!
Let me say this: PvP at it's core is all about fragging (killing) the enemy whether it be a team or free for all, to climb the ranks and win the match. Nothing is wrong with a game mode being just that, sometimes however, it beats the odds for a game to have a solid, well rounded pvp experience.
Disable the Portal Gun entirely would be a great idea since there is no way to disable players portalling to out of reach areas or portalling players off the map which would make the Portal Gun the best weapon in PvP. Additionally, an enemy can portal the flag to a roof and sit there, stalling the game indefinitely at their leisure. It can also be used for cheap and easy captures of the flag which ruins it for the other team.
On top of that, the Portal Gun significantly lowers FPS in PvP especially when more than one person is using it. A game shouldn't require you to lower game settings to get decent fps in a certain game mode and currently PvP requires this due to the Portal Gun.
So let's get started, I'll break it up in to sections:
[I.] Competitive Tower Defense PvP (Karathiki Jungle) PvEvP
[III.] Additional Mode Ideas/Additions
[I.] Competitive Tower Defense PvP (Karathiki Jungle) PvEvP
1. Competitive tower defense Ogre tokens:
The third token seems to come in as the wave is about done, and it is only useful, at least earlier on earlier waves, when you can call multiple ones at once, meaning you either need to call two tokens and waste the third, or wait for all three but have the Ogres attack when there are no other enemies. Having tokens carry over between waves may alleviate this. This may also cause the other team to panic, which is part of the fun.
2. More token variations:
In addition, more tokens would be nice to mix and match what you send. Kobolds, Warriors, Wyverns, and so on. Consider adding in an addition to the HUD to show how many tokens you have per monster type to send out and allow us to hotkey the mobs, this would allow players to focus on the game play without running down to the forge to hit the tokens which takes players out of the match for a brief period.
3. Count Timer:
The build timer on competitive tower defense should start to count only after everybody has set ready and are spawned in. To disable players jumping in ahead of everyone else farming mana from the chests, disable the chests being opened or lock players in their spawn location until everyone is in.
4. Battle Participation:
Being able to participate directly in the attack on the enemy would be fun. You could be able to cross to the opponent's playing field, which would automatically activate a buff around you (similar to the Monk's hero boost) that will buff all mobs within the radius. The buff, of course, is inactive while on your own field. Perhaps make it so you take somewhat increased damage from enemy defenses so you can be killed if not careful (For example, 33% reduction in resistances while still being able to survive against harpoons for more than one hit, this could be simplified by making towers automatically deal a certain percentage of the players max health per hit instead of based on the tower builders stats).
Add an option to auto-balance games, when auto-balance is enabled, the following list of changes occurs:
On All PvP maps allow DU to build with.
Increase Tower and Res for Easy, Normal, Hard and Insane to match Nightmare if possible.
Increase Tower health by 200-400% on all towers.
1. Battle Leap
Disable Battle Leap or at least take the auto-aim off (Make it just jump in a straight line). This would make it require more skill to use effectively instead of almost one shotting back to back without needing to worry about missing your target.
2. Turtle Stance
Decrease resistance buff by at least 33%, you still take less damage but can actually die to other classes without the need for Blood Rage to take you down. Increase speed by 10% to make up for the lack of resistance and tweak for balance.
3. Hawk Strike
Decrease damage by 50%, allow players to attack 1 second after using Hawk Strike while keeping the deactivation time where it is.
4. Lightning Strike
Add stun to players for .1 seconds (This means they are immobile only as long as the player is attacking with the stance activated), decrease player damage while Lightning Stance is activated by 50%, increase damage taken by an additional 25% to the player using Lightning Stance. This makes it more of a last resort skill while making it a support skill as well.
5. Tornado Stance
Reduces total damage towards target players health by 66% on all attacks while active.
1. Mana Bomb
Increase damage to do 50% players health (So any players who are hit by it take 50% of their total HP damage) when closer to center of mana bomb with it decreasing to 30% damage at the edge of the radius. Decrease cooldown time to 15 seconds since PvP is faster paced.
Damage to deal 3-5% of the target players total health.
When you exit the tower radius, have the lightning beam stop hitting the player it is targeting. Damage to deal 10-15% of the target players total health.
Damage to deal 20-30% of the target players total health.
1. Call To Arms/Blood Rage
Lower damage dealt by 50%, decrease resistance increase by 50%, decrease speed increase by 25%.
Damage to deal 8-12% of the target players total health.
Damage to deal 15-20% of the target players total health.
Damage to deal 17-22% of the target players total health.
-Slice N Dice
Damage to deal 5-7% of the target players total health.
Make the player transparent by 90%, make Invisibility disable when player attacks or is attacked. Reduce tower attack range on players with Invisibility active by 40% (This makes towers a sort of Invisibility Detector).
2. Piercing Shot Equivalents
Damage to deal 25% of the target players total health.
Damage to deal 20% of the target players total health, max lowest reset rate to 2.0 Seconds.
Damage to deal 20% of the target players total health over 10 seconds, damage increases supplemental per second per 2% of the target players total health when INSIDE the trap radius (Example: When you stand in the gas trap and fight instead of exiting the trap radius).
Damage to deal 2-4% of the target players total health.
Decrease target players resistances by 25-33% for 30 seconds, Add black fog around the players view for 10 seconds , limiting the view by 50%.
Damage to deal 25-33% of the target players total health, detonation reset time minimum 6 seconds.
1. Hero Boost
Increase hero damage by 20% for 1 teammate boosted, 18% for 2, 16% for 3, etc, to a minimum of 10% damage boost.
2. Enemy Drain
Reduce resistances by 33% on target player, decrease damage dealt by target player by 33%.
3. Tower Boost
Increase tower damage dealt to player by 10% of total health.
4. Defense Boost
Repairs towers by 2% of total health of tower. Increase tower damage dealt to players by 10%.
Slow speed to deal 10-26% of the target players run speed.
Damage to deal 3-7% of the target players total health.
Health to restore to target player 3-5% of the target players total health.
Lower target players attack by 15-25%.
Add confusion for 3-10 seconds (Swap names or remove names from players for affected player(s), swap colors around).
Have Hologram use nav_points that the monsters use while changing the colors to match the player who put it down or a random player from the Series Evs' team (Mimic). Damage to deal 25% of the target players total health. Increase reset time by 10 seconds. Decrease Holograms health to 50% of the activated players total health. Hologram takes double the total health percentage of damage from attacks.
2. Proton Charge Blast
1500 mana to fully charge, damage dealt per 1 second of target players total health by 2%.
Damage to deal 15-25% of the target players total health.
Disable auto aim targeting when aiming at a Reflection Beam (Currently auto aims to the first node placed by enemy Series EV). Set health on Reflection Beam to 1000-2000. Set damage multiplier to 1.1x-1.5x on Reflection Beam.
Add shock damage supplemental by 25%-50% of target players total health.
-Tower Buff Beam
Increase buff rates by 1.1x-1.5x.
Increase max DU to 18 due to the fact that the beams are extremely easy to dodge and deal significantly less damage than a tower due to its' extremely large attack radius.
Standard Changes to Classes/Weapons
-Increase Block Damage universally to 80% incoming damage negated no matter what the block percentage is on equipped weapon. This allows you to strategically block massive damage while still taking damage to avoid turtling; your back is still accessible so you are not immune. This is a nice balance since Block is currently useless for the most part but when you block you take nothing as it stands.
-Allow blocking to reduce damage from every last attack on the player, when you block an attack that deals more than 33% of your total health, have the block break and be disabled for 3 seconds. This could be symbolized by having a dizzy particle effect above the players head for the break duration.
You get attacked for 50% of your total health and you block it, you still reduce the 50% by 80% with block but then you can no longer block for 3 seconds. This adds emphasis on blocking and having heavier hitting weapons so you can deal a higher percentage of the target players health while your block is down.
2. Swords/Melee Attacks from Monk Staves
-The slowest swords/Staves do the most damage capping in at 10% damage of the total health of the target player.
-The fastest swords/Staves do the least damage capping in at 3% damage of the total health of the target player.
-Swords/Staves between the slowest and fastest ones would be capped between 3.5-8% damage of the total health of the target player.
3. Ranged Attacks
-Ranged attacks no matter the weapon; excluding Staffs usable by the apprentice, can be balanced by making the damage supplemental over time. The first projectile dealing 5% of the targets total health and moving out from the center each additional projectile dealing 1% less damage of the total health of the target. To balance ranged and melee in combat to give melee a chance, supplemental damage to the ranged attack while the attack is being held down (auto shoot). Lowering from 5% to 2% of the target players total health with a loss of .5% of the target players total health per second. To prevent abuse of the system, after releasing auto fire a 2 second interval must pass for the supplemental damage to reset to 5% on the main projectile and additional projectiles. There should be a ramp up to the normal total damage of the target players health for each half a second that passes while auto shoot is not active.
-The slowest ranged weapons should deal out 9% damage on the main projectile of the total health of the target player.
-The fastest ranged weapons should deal out 3% damage on the main projectile of the total health of the target player. This balance needs tweaking to avoid miniguns being completely overpowered in pvp matches.
4. Apprentice Attacks
-All staffs should have their charge time set to 90 universally (meaning everyone has charge +90 on their staves in pvp).
-The autofire shots should do 4% of player health, ramping up to 8% for partially charged shots just below the threshold of a full charge. A full charge should deal 12% of player health. For each additional projectile spanning from the center to deal 1% less damage of the target players total health.
-The secondary knockback attack should do +140 Universally as a static stat on all staffs in the knockback skill and 4% damage to player health so it can be used more as an escape tool or to knock players off of ledges. After using the secondary knockback attack, disable it for 2 seconds to avoid spam and abuse since it should be a last resort for apprentice not a main attack.
5. Barbarian Combo Attack
-Half a percent per combo attack strike (1 strike per weapon on the combo)
damage to target players total health.
6. CTF While carrying the flag
-While carrying the flag, all abilities, stances and towers disabled (So you cannot build them). A good example is to avoid flag speed buff overwrite, where you activate Turtle Stance before or after grabbing the flag to overwrite the flag slow debuff and run at maximum speed while carrying the flag. To fix this, disable all abilities when the flag is picked up then .5 seconds later enable the flag speed debuff to slow the flag carrier down.
-Ramp the healing up to the Nightmare Survival standard so you can use your mana to heal yourself at a good rate if you choose to do so across all difficulties in pvp. To fully heal yourself it should take 1580 mana, no more no less. Lose half health use half your max mana (depends on your max mana pool). This doesn't change if you have low health or high health since damage taken is based on a percentage of your total health pool.
[III.] Additional Mode Ideas/Additions
1. Infection/Last Man Standing
-At the beginning of the match, a random player is chosen and coloured green on their clothes and skin. The other players are their normal colours but if they have green on them it is changed to a random colour so that there is no confusion. As well as some sort of cloudy particle effect around the Infected, or a glow of some sort, easily noticeable. For example: When a Huntress uses Invisibility it turns you black, maybe use that but turn you green instead?
-When the Infected player attacks you you lose a percentage of your speed on par with your health. If the Infected player touches you (Brushes against you with their character model) you lose health at 1% the target players total health per half second. If the Infected player kills you, you respawn as an Infected.
-Infected players start at their normal run speed but as the round time passes they gradually gain additional speed, towards a maximum of 50% bonus run speed.
-Players get an additional damage bonus by 15% at the start of the match but as time progresses through out the match the bonus damage lowers down to -50% damage of the normal attack damage of the player.
-First wave has 10 minutes, second has 9, etc. If time runs out and the Infected players have not turned any players to the Infected team, the Surviving Players win. If a single person is turned by any Infected by the time the wave time runs out, the next wave starts.
-If every player except for 1 Survivor has been turned to Infected that last survivor gets 50% bonus damage (so 150% damage of base damage) and 20% bonus speed. Or a small percentage per Infected player in the game, so the damage bonus and speed bonus in a 4v4 game would be 25% bonus damage and 10% bonus speed vs 50% bonus damage and 20% bonus speed in an 8v8 game.
-Infected players have a 3 second spawn timer no matter how often they die.
-An Attack/Defend gametype. The red team has a limited amount of build time to set up their entire defense for that round. To make sure players spread out defenses instead of clustering them all near the crystal(s), designate several areas that must contain a minimum amount of Defense Units for the round to start, and if all areas do not meet that minimum requirement by the time the building phase ends, blue team wins by default. (Be generous with the time so players cannot grief by delaying, though they can still sell, Or place towers in pre-determined spots like in the assault map packs)
-Assuming the minimum requirements have been met, combat phase will start and the blue team is allowed to advance with the intent on destroying all enemy crystals within the time limit. This plays out as Assault, except with dynamic setups made by an enemy player team instead of being static. There could also be a small number of regular mobs targeting the blue team as a distraction.
-Scoring can be round-based, with the attacking team gaining a point for the successful destruction of all enemy crystals and the defending team gaining a point for the successful defense of at least one crystal by the end of the round's time limit. After a round is over, everything is reset and the teams switch roles. This continues until one team reaches the set score limit.
3. Score to win
-Allow us to set the score to win instead of to difficulty in increments of 10 points.
-If deadset on tying to difficulty make it:
Easy: 1 point per cap.
Normal: 2 points per cap.
Hard: 3 points per cap.
Insane: 4 points per cap.
Nightmare: 5 points per cap.
As much as we like PvP it takes too long on Nightmare for the average or hardcore player to hit 120 captures in a full game (or an empty game).
4. Team Swap
-Allow team swapping during the match without the need to reconnect; going through the escape menu or a hotkey.
-Disable team swapping if teams are even.
5. Capturing the flag
-Allow us the options to choose whether or not the flag has to be at base to cap, this allows flexibility and balance in some cases and in others, a variation to the game play.
It would be a very nice addition to see a matchmaking system for PvP with unlockable costumes for winning so many matches, whether you go in with 1-7 friends (for a 2-8 team) or by yourself, it would extend the longevity of pvp and make it much more accessible if hosted on TrendyNet Matchmaking with annual awards and events. This would take a lot of work and may be out of the ballpark currently, though it is definitely something to consider since it would add a full pvp choice when purchasing the game while keeping in touch with the games focus.
Giving players Experience for staying in matches to the end, whether they win or lose, to help them level up would be a good way to balance out who you are matched up against, keeping you matched with players either 5 levels under or 5 levels above you or both at the same time so there is always someone to play with. However, if it cannot find anyone in those level ranges, it could expand the search to look for any levels. Obviously, if your team wins, you gain more experience towards the next Matchmaking Level than if your team loses.
Miscellaneous and thanks:
The main reason we chose to test based on percentages of the total players health pool is it is the closest and easiest way to perfectly balance a game with stats based on gear. The other reason is even if someone joins with hacked gear, they are on the same playing field as everyone else since it becomes percentage based and not stat based. The balances bring the pvp in line with games such as QTF, TF2, and Unreal Tournament, balancing the game no matter which way you play yet keeping skill as a valuable asset in a players arsenal.
Obviously, many of the suggestions would need fine tweaking but we have given you a good place to start percentage wise on just about every last ability and attack in the game.
If you have any questions, please let us know as we look forward to a time when pvp is fun no matter who joins or what class you play as. We know there are a lot of suggestions here and that it can look and feel overwhelming, so take your time.
Hope to hear back from you, take care!
Just read how important feedback is for pvp development! Wrote this in the digest, and since this thread seems a little empty... I hope I'm not bothering anyone placing my suggestions here:
+Make pvp an even playing field by ignoring the hero build and armor of the players' log-in hero, as their stats will be replaced with special pvp stats. In fact, ignore the avatar altogether, because..
+PvP maps must allow players to switch heroes in-game. Even if they log into Open or Trendy.net as a Monk, when entering pvp, they have the option to change to a apprentice or another hero. pvp is the type of beast that needs this option (as well as the above mention stat reconfiguration). Treat this game mode like the big thing it can be by...
+Giving PvP "challenges" their own tab in the game selection screen. They shouldn't be bundled with the other challenges because it's messy. This will advertise to players that pvp is a thing, a thing they should try out, because now no uber lvl buzz-kill will log in and overkill everyone.
I hope those suggestions were understandable (wrote them on the spot). I hope something becomes of this. I dream of the day pvp can be a bona fide mode for everyone to enjoy!
Thank you for taking time to read this, and especially for trying to revamp this mode!
A pretty impressive amount has been covered thanks to Raistlyn I see. One thing I would like to add is that, at least a small part of the problem may also be that almost all of the new PvP maps released have been for paid DLC, making the only free ones Hall of Heroes and the President's Day map, which... well, is Hall of Heroes. Off the top of my head, Competitive Tower Defense, Lifestream PvP, and Oasis PvP can't even be joined by those without the content, which is cutting the amount of players, and therefore interest, by that much more on an already gasping aspect of the game.
A couple of the original maps should really be modified with the new tower defense type, CTF, and the regular PvP type. Then at least *everybody* can both host and join these matches.
Of course, the major reason as to why there is no interest is the terrible balancing of the stats, which is a bit unfair for PvP as this problem hasn't even given it a chance to gain interest, but this aspect has already been covered.
Wow... i play on the PS3 but also often read the threads about Pc and what i see here is, if trendy is going to use some of your changes, you guys will have alot of fun in PvP nice that you even take so much time to give them a nice help.
Are any of the Devs/Community admins even checking this thread? Or is this thread dead.. I've noticed the trendy logo popping up on a numerous amount of other threads in the pvp forum but nothing here; seeing as this is the official sticky I just thought (assumed) someone would pay attention to it.
There should be a neutral zone for the PvP maps. (Like the bridge in Frostdale for example~ :P)
A PvP Gametype Concept
Honestly I think PvP is the way to go now with this game. Tons of people out there are completely leveled up with several chars and have all the best gear they can possibly get, and PvP adds a whole other aspect to the game that will be very fun. I personally think that you should completely revamp what classes do in PvP though. When people do Ranked PvP, I assume there will be a leaderboard of sorts.
Here's some ideas I have in general:
Firstly, I think there should be two types of Ranked PvP. A 'matchmaking with randoms' type and a 'organized match' type. The idea is that the Random matchmaking is basically where everyone that joins is put to the same level and all stats are put to a certain limit. For example, everyone is level 50, and no matter what there equipment is they are only allowed to have 200 of any given stat. This also means that there should be a cap on how many skill points you can even have. So lets say you have 1000 skill points to spend on whatever statistic you want. This is the only way things could really be balanced in a public, unorganized game with random people. The problem is, it would render most equipment useless and completely abolish the point of being able to bring your characters which you've worked hard on into PvP as no matter what level you are, you have the same stats. This brings me to the idea of having a separate mode for PvP completely. Ranked, Open, PvP. It could be great! You can turn various maps into PvP maps, have several different gamemodes... Many of which are already in the game as challenges and such. Have fair matchmaking where it puts you with people that have a similar W/L ratio with you and you'd be gold! So your PvP characters are completely separate from the rest allowing you to have a completely custom statistic plan for the PvP characters. This could also mean that each hero only gets a few defenses. Things like the magic barrier are useless, so you could either replace them with something new, give them a use OR just take them out and make it so every hero only has maybe 3 or 4 defenses to use.
Leveling up in this PvP mode would be simple. I suggest a MOBA style system, where they level up as they play in each game rather than having one constant level. I think that at the beginning of the game you should be able to chose between 3 different player roles - Builders, Tanks (DPS) and Supporters. Once you've chosen a role you choose a hero.
A Builder - Let us say I choose to be a builder, then I choose apprentice. This means I will be an apprentice with low stats of everything except my tower stats. I will be slow, weak, and not quick to repair, build and cast... But my defenses will be great. When I level up I can upgrade any of my statistics, but I am limited to a maximum of about 20 in all except the tower stats.
A Supporter - Now I'll choose supporter and I choose to be the squire. (I'm choosing squire rather than the inevitable choice of huntress to prove that the most heroes will work with most roles). So Support will get high speed, high casting rate and strong hero abilities. As a squire, I already have high health, so that's a good combo giving me a little bonus... But I'm also slow, so although I have a speed boost I only end up being about average speed. Luckily that's something I can put as many upgrades into as I want as I level up, so I could potentially get a good stat build going to turn from a support character to being a generic warrior that can help out in fights.
A Tank - Tanks inevitably get high health, high damage and high resistance. As they level up they become almost invincible to mobs and really put up a fight against players and even enemy towers. This time I choose to be play tank as Series EV. I am a ranged tank, which is good in itself... But I immediately suggest the range to be nerfed like it is in Assault challenges to prevent it from being overpowered. Anyway, I have high HP and damage... So I am essential for taking out enemy defenses. Having a support countess on my team using her Call to Arms ability to give me a little boost.
So that's my matchmaking PvP idea. Using that sort of game mechanic to create several gametypes and just let people have fun with it. For getting certain achievements and such you can make accessories and pets that they can carry with them to show off. That's always fun.
For an organized game of PvP, everything is fine the way it is. The reason I say this is because if it's organized people can set ground rules stating things such as the hero must be this level, there must be one of these heroes on every team... yadayadayada. It generally makes it more fun when you go into a game that was planned and that is fair than when you jump into a random guys game that's full of extremely fast DPS chars. With my idea I think matchmaking and PvP with randoms will be much better, and I really hope you take some of it into consideration. Thanks for reading.
I'd like to note that I am not very experienced at all with DD PvP, just PvP in general. I also didn't read the above post by Raistlyn before making my post.