These 7.41 notes..

[Rand0m1zat10n]

Easier King's game? I thought you guys said it wasn't gonna get any easier. Oh well, works for me I guess.

Also, "* Changed mesh particle systems to use a pool of mesh components, resulting in a substantial performance and memory savings."

Performance boost? Yes please.

[Gungniir]

I agree on performance boost.

Kings game is so full of disappoint....

This map started on 3 yo mode.
Went up to big boy pants ..
Back down to 12 yr old mode and now it's going FURTHER down....
Sigh

I play this game for entertainment not mindless farming, that bit got old quick

[Rand0m1zat10n]

I agree, the difficulty is disappointing. That and the fact that I can't seem to get a good reward no matter what I do irritates me.

[Drumstix42]

With what kind of stats is it boring? Chopper ogres still have a crap load of HP, only getting through about half the waves with 2 players.

[Rand0m1zat10n]

It's easy to do duo, don't have to do much. My stats are mostly under 2k, except for damage on my monk, and 3.3k? damage on my squire, with only ~1.4k rate. Low health on EV too, probably less than 1.5k. My stats are no way incredible, and this map is pretty easy to do. It's only gonna get easier I guess.

[Wally]

So on your monk you have around 2 k stats with the exception of the dmg for it, I presume it 'll be higher.

on your squire you have nearly the same with the exception for rate and towerdmg (rate is a 2/3th, dmg is like 3/2).

And you are then complaining that this map is easy? No really sherlock I wouldn't have expected that.

I just didn't know a map that is supposed to be a steppingstone would be aimed at people that already got great stats. And yes your stats are great...

[spider-prime]

lol people with high stats complaining..........

[Rand0m1zat10n]

No, no.

I have a little over 2k attack on my aura monk, with roughly 1.5k on the rest. Squire has nothing in 2k, but 3.3k tower attack. Summoner is a few hundred points ahead of my monk.

My stats are nice, yes, but nowhere near what some people are at.

[ShinUkyo]

You have fairly high stats, and you said you can simply duo it. If it can't be soloed with stats like yours, on campaign, then I'd say it's still a bit too hard. This slight difficulty decrease promised in 7.41 is a merited one, in that case. I've managed to duo/trio the campaign version since the most-recent patches, with only minor issues, but I still can't imagine it being very sensible to clear solo. The boost in starting mana, along with this slight difficulty decrease, could be enough to make the campaign version viable in solo play. Can't say the same for Survival, necessarily, but it'll obviously help in either case.

[KnowsNoLimits]

If its true intention was to be a bridging map then it should of been easier all along.

I agree it started out way too easy in the beginning. Then it got bumped up to ridiculous proprortions, only now does it seem not so bad since I have learned that copter's height has been finally fixed and that in itself is the best change by far. It's definitely a suprise to see it become slightly more easier, but you know what people should have a chance to progress somewhat and if this map helps them do it then so be it.

If slightly easier means less missile spam them i'm all for it.

[Staalker]

They say slightly easier, and people are complaining not knowing exactly what that means.

Might you wait until you actually see the changes before complaining? Seems silly.

[DarkSoul]

people who have higher than 2k stats should not be able to call things easy, an devs should ignore their whinings

[Actionx1]

If you think it's too easy, go play Talay. That's a challenge aimed at end game players.

This is aimed for the average casual gamer.

It's free, stop complaining.

-type R blood-

[Jonzor]

I've been asking for days what they tweak when they nerf "difficulty". Enemy health? Enemy damage? Health, damage, and mob size?

But they don't seem to be interested in answering.

[Winterbraid]

I've been asking for days what they tweak when they nerf "difficulty". Enemy health? Enemy damage? Health, damage, and mob size?

But they don't seem to be interested in answering.

I understand that when they 'nerf the difficulty,' they nerf the mob scaling. So the buffs that mobs receive with each next wave you complete in Survival mode (health, speed, damage) are made smaller.

Unless I am terribly wrong, that means 'nerfing the difficulty' will make little difference in the early waves and a bigger difference in the late waves (20-30). Not the best solution if you ask me (especially for someone who had trouble getting to those late waves in the first place), but always something.

[Zen00]

If you think it's too easy, go play Talay. That's a challenge aimed at end game players.

This is aimed for the average casual gamer.

It's free, stop complaining.

-type R blood-

This.

Also try City on the Cliffs, that's a challenge and a half, at wave 24 60 million HP copter ogres and wot.

With my just under 2k stats, I still can't do NMHC campaign, and I'd like to be able to.

[imported_some_guy]

Did I miss something in the patch notes about them making it easier? All I see is that they're fixing the goblin copters and giving the chests more starting mana.

[Naloxone]

Did I miss something in the patch notes about them making it easier? All I see is that their fixing the goblin copters and giving the chests more starting mana.

It didn't make it in,


Edit: * Made The King's Game slightly easier. - This patch note didn't make it into the final 7.41 build but should be in the next patch to be released. Sorry for the confusion.

[Winterbraid]

Did I miss something in the patch notes about them making it easier? All I see is that their fixing the goblin copters and giving the chests more starting mana.

It was there when the notes were in the Upcoming section. I don't see the same phrase now in the Current Patch Notes.

Edit: I guess what Naloxone said explains it.

[Rand0m1zat10n]

I can solo it with little problems, its just easier duo.

Anyway, as easy as it is, if it gets easier, I'm fine with it. If it'll help people actually get somewhere in terms of progression, that's good.

[Tang56]

King's Game is definately easier, 190 secs to build, 300 mana/chest and the mobs no longer move like they're on amphetamines from wave 1, even on the last wave they aren't as fast as they were previously on wave 1.

No real problems with goblin choppers, I managed the campaign with only summoner, EV and normal 115DU/MU, not even fully upgraded on anything except buff beams. Rewards are...okay. Got a Light Knight with ^33 ups and two over capped stats(speed and tower damage) and everything else was negative 100-200 and a Ult Sicarus(junk stats of around 30-50, low damage but ^300ish ups).

The best thing about this map is that it's a fairly quick mana and XP farm.

[T@F]

At last i was so close to un-installing this game.
At least i can past the first few waves now,that's better than not passing any at all on nm soloing kings map strategy.
Hopefully i can progress now.

[Argotto]

I honestly don't know what their new stance is on the subject, but this still is no where near a 'bridge' between the original and shard campaign maps.

To say you are disappointed that it got a tiny bit easier seems a bit selfish, considering far more players' hopes were absolutely crushed after the buff to it.

[Rominus]

It isn't that there is not a bridge it is just that the bridge isn't clear. I've started new characters from scratch numerous times to play the game with friends who got the game so I've unfortunately gone through the grind several times. Most recent time I did was this past steam summer sale when my brother got the game- it isn't easy, but it is hardly difficult. The main difficulty is knowing what you should aim for when playing. (which yes, I do know what to aim for so I didn't find it difficult) I think the big issue players have isn't actually bridging the gap but knowing where to look in general.

[Argotto]

It isn't that there is not a bridge it is just that the bridge isn't clear. I've started new characters from scratch numerous times to play the game with friends who got the game so I've unfortunately gone through the grind several times. Most recent time I did was this past steam summer sale when my brother got the game- it isn't easy, but it is hardly difficult. The main difficulty is knowing what you should aim for when playing. (which yes, I do know what to aim for so I didn't find it difficult) I think the big issue players have isn't actually bridging the gap but knowing where to look in general.

Aside from survival, you either exploit the system by completing a wave and farming chests over, and over, and over again, or you farm the utter crap out of boss rush. Either way and immense amount of time is required to MAYBE find upgrades after a good 30-40 runs. I've already tried this stuff, and the RNG is brutal. I am glad for you if you were far luckier than I, but as for myself and the group of friends I play with, we are at a stand still.

[Rand0m1zat10n]

Aside from survival, you either exploit the system by completing a wave and farming chests over, and over, and over again, or you farm the utter crap out of boss rush. Either way and immense amount of time is required to MAYBE find upgrades after a good 30-40 runs. I've already tried this stuff, and the RNG is brutal. I am glad for you if you were far luckier than I, but as for myself and the group of friends I play with, we are at a stand still.

Or farm King's Game/CD/Sky City for weapons with actually good damage scaling.

[Argotto]

Or farm King's Game/CD/Sky City for weapons with actually good damage scaling.

Weapons for hero dps have never been the issue, or at least not for me anyway. Weapons are far more common of a drop and reward than armor is. Not to mention quite a few players will actually sell good supremes in their shop for 500-600 mil.

[Rand0m1zat10n]

I mean as in the reward weapons, not drops. Every time I've ran Sky City/King's for a weapon it's turned out as crap.

[DarkSoul]

Trendy have proven to not be good at game balance "there is most likely an internal reason for the heavy handed nerfs" what ever that reason is should be ignored and changed because its wrong and is costing the company money in the long run.

Maps In DD should not be tailored to high stats players because that prevents non high stat players playing that content.

The game itself has a very good way of adding difficulty by the wave numbers/hc/mm and mob spawns and should be utilised instead of making the Generic blanket nerfs/buffs because its the easy option. As using the excuse this map is end game content so it uber hard is a bad polcy games designers need to learn.

basically all you have to do is make maps that everyone can farm and everyone can progress. Yeah there always is end-game syndrome but thats why you make new maps that ARE different and challenging and NOT JUST A STAT BUMP to mobs.

[fulano]

Maps In DD should not be tailored to high stats players because that prevents non high stat players playing that content.



Excuse me, since when did you start to believe that DD should be tailored to cater **your own likings** and not a global player base?? Man, and I was talking to someone about deluded self-important pr****.

[Wally]

Excuse me, since when did you start to believe that DD should be tailored to cater **your own likings** and not a global player base?? Man, and I was talking to someone about deluded self-important pr****.

He is right however from a pure business point of view. You never balance for the high end people. you always balance for the average to the casual.

But nothing should stop a company for ocasionally releasing something for the more highend people. But that does not include an entire extra difficulty, it is just to much of a carrot that casuals will want to crack.

[spider-prime]

If we got a new difficulty that would start giving us better gear as we played. I wouldn't even mind that. I will take anything that will make the higher end gear more common or at least lets most people get past 2k stats. I'm just sick of farming for nothing.

[Gungniir]

lol people with high stats complaining..........
If you worked your *** off to get 4k+ builders and the last thing trendy releases is a stepping stone map, you'd pretty pissed you just spent over 500 hours to see them only cater to casuals too.

[Dracil]

If you worked your *** off to get 4k+ builders and the last thing trendy releases is a stepping stone map, you'd pretty pissed you just spent over 500 hours to see them only cater to casuals too.

Man, all those hundreds of hours grinding Molten Core for my awesome purple gear. Look at my epeen.

Wait, whaddya mean new/casual players can get much better green loot now within a week of playing?! You mean I wasted all those hours of my life on a computer game for nothing?!

[Gungniir]

Man, all those hundreds of hours grinding Molten Core for my awesome purple gear. Look at my epeen.

Wait, whaddya mean new/casual players can get much better green loot now within a week of playing?! You mean I wasted all those hours of my life on a computer game for nothing?!

This is the type of game where you get what you put in. If you don't put in the same effort I very much feel you do NOT deserve the same quality of gear.
Period.

[MrBurningFinger]

i got this quote from previous threads about the King's Game.

I wonder why end gamers were thinking this map was intended for them. My impression was that the map was intended to be a bridge to the harder maps and as such should be easy for those end gamers. Now someone from Trendy can correct me if I'm incorrect in this, or a moderator can. Either way, based on the posts by Trendy and moderators - I took the new map to be the bridge to close the gap in progression as their final farewell in maps.

I'm seeing alot of end gamers take this 'easy' map as their final map and should be the ultimate challenge for them. But that conflicts with my impression.

Curious.

I think the guys' name is grey-1? not sure. but this makes sense.

[classic22]

If you worked your *** off to get 4k+ builders and the last thing trendy releases is a stepping stone map, you'd pretty pissed you just spent over 500 hours to see them only cater to casuals too.

This type of attitude is another reason why the economy is broken.

Those who can easily farm something want to control the monopoly they have for personal gain only. The only reason you don't want others being able to complete that map is so you can exploit that fact and keep the prices high on items.

Who cares how many hours people play? There is no reward for playing over 500 hours. Just a pat on the back.

There are people that have been in my job for less time but earn more than me, I don't complain about that, I feel good for them.

This isn't a pvp game, it's pve. Why can't we all have nice things?

[Foxx]

This type of attitude is another reason why the economy is broken.

Those who can easily farm something want to control the monopoly they have for personal gain only. The only reason you don't want others being able to complete that map is so you can exploit that fact and keep the prices high on items.

Who cares how many hours people play? There is no reward for playing over 500 hours. Just a pat on the back.

There are people that have been in my job for less time but earn more than me, I don't complain about that, I feel good for them.

This isn't a pvp game, it's pve. Why can't we all have nice things?

+1 and Well said Classic.

[ShinUkyo]

This is the type of game where you get what you put in. If you don't put in the same effort I very much feel you do NOT deserve the same quality of gear. Period.
See, but, this has already been happening for a long time. New players today are getting Mythicals and playing Nightmare stages after their first couple weeks of playing; and this is without being carried by high-level friends. I remember playing the vanilla version of the game myself, spending a couple hundred hours before I could even get my tower stats to 300 (three hundred, not thousand.)

Am I upset that people are getting there so much faster than me? Not in the least. This is not a competitive game, it's a cooperative one. When people can get better stuff, faster, I celebrate that. They are my comrades. The game has put out progressively better equipment as time has gone on, and at each step of the way it becomes possible for players to become more powerful much sooner. So if you're worried about that, I'm sorry to say, that ship has sailed long ago. No version of King's Game, easy or hard, is going to change that one bit.

You already have Crystalline Dimension, which exists specifically to be an ultimate final challenge. You also have Sky City, Palantir, Talay, and other such very tough stages on NMHC. So saying you don't have a set of final challenges is false, pure and simple. And I've already explained that King's Game has had no effect on making the game vastly easier for new players: it was already that way. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[KnowsNoLimits]

This type of attitude is another reason why the economy is broken.

Those who can easily farm something want to control the monopoly they have for personal gain only. The only reason you don't want others being able to complete that map is so you can exploit that fact and keep the prices high on items.

Who cares how many hours people play? There is no reward for playing over 500 hours. Just a pat on the back.

There are people that have been in my job for less time but earn more than me, I don't complain about that, I feel good for them.

This isn't a pvp game, it's pve. Why can't we all have nice things?

This post should be stickied. HAHA.

[Gungniir]

This type of attitude is another reason why the economy is broken.

Those who can easily farm something want to control the monopoly they have for personal gain only. The only reason you don't want others being able to complete that map is so you can exploit that fact and keep the prices high on items.

Who cares how many hours people play? There is no reward for playing over 500 hours. Just a pat on the back.

There are people that have been in my job for less time but earn more than me, I don't complain about that, I feel good for them.

This isn't a pvp game, it's pve. Why can't we all have nice things?
I completely disagree, the economy is broken because trendy doesn't want to spend the money to make this game completely server side (therefore unhackable \ reasonably unhackable [honestly calling it hacking this game is a disgrace to hackers... it's more like simple hex editing....])

PvE, PvP who cares? If I spend the time to earn something why shouldn't you?

Sure we can all have nice things, but it is a complete slap in the face to have them thrown to noobs when others have had to "work" to get them

It's just like WoW, I quit because they catered to casuals. If TE caters to casuals (which they haven't yet, but I can see them heading in the direction but god I hope not) I will stop playing this game and not look back.

I like this is a community centered game, keep it that way it works wonders. I do not like catering to people who are not willing to put the same effort in as me or others. I don't care how many hours you have played, if you put the same *effort* into getting what I've got, then props bro we are on equal footing. If you were just given something because trendy decided hey loot pinata for just facerolling 1m hp ogres (looking at you pre buff and now post nerf's king's game) then yeah, I'll be very angry.

Having end of game equipment on DunDef is about having a sense of pride in your characters because it IS a lot of work getting 5 or so builders (or more!) and however many DPS sets you wish to make.

I for one am very proud of my gear in every way. I have earned it all legit and despite running across some 'hacked' equips earlier in my trading career I took my losses and moved on.

That's my opinion

[spider-prime]

If you worked your *** off to get 4k+ builders and the last thing trendy releases is a stepping stone map, you'd pretty pissed you just spent over 500 hours to see them only cater to casuals too.

I agree with Classic and I would also like to add is that I wouldn't care at all if people got better gear in the game. I WANT people to get better gear in the game, this game is Coop play, I want other people to come into my game with awesome gear and I will be happy that they can help me out a lot.
When I host games, I let people loot, doesn't bother me. I just say don't be greedy and spam pick up so we all get mana.

[classic22]

I completely disagree, the economy is broken because trendy doesn't want to spend the money to make this game completely server side (therefore unhackable \ reasonably unhackable [honestly calling it hacking this game is a disgrace to hackers... it's more like simple hex editing....])

PvE, PvP who cares? If I spend the time to earn something why shouldn't you?

Sure we can all have nice things, but it is a complete slap in the face to have them thrown to noobs when others have had to "work" to get them

It's just like WoW, I quit because they catered to casuals. If TE caters to casuals (which they haven't yet, but I can see them heading in the direction but god I hope not) I will stop playing this game and not look back.

I like this is a community centered game, keep it that way it works wonders. I do not like catering to people who are not willing to put the same effort in as me or others. I don't care how many hours you have played, if you put the same *effort* into getting what I've got, then props bro we are on equal footing. If you were just given something because trendy decided hey loot pinata for just facerolling 1m hp ogres (looking at you pre buff and now post nerf's king's game) then yeah, I'll be very angry.

Having end of game equipment on DunDef is about having a sense of pride in your characters because it IS a lot of work getting 5 or so builders (or more!) and however many DPS sets you wish to make.

I for one am very proud of my gear in every way. I have earned it all legit and despite running across some 'hacked' equips earlier in my trading career I took my losses and moved on.

That's my opinion

You're reading what you want and taking things out of context.

I said another reason why the economy is broken, not the reason, there is a massive difference.


You are still going on about how people aren't "equal" to you. All because the clock on their steam profile reads a less number than you. Progression is broken and this gave people an opportunity to at least get to 1.5k stats and then try to start the real farming.

No one who farmed KG when it was first released went from 4k.

Besides, you most likely were able to scale the wall while it was still a fence (no copters or Sharken or possibly djinn) whilst others are standing at the bottom of a heavily fortified castle armed with a spoon.

The fact is, the more people on equal stats, the better as that gives us more opportunity to play with better players, increasing our chances of success.


The drive in this game for me is getting perfect items, regardless of how long that takes. If I have to trade, I want to pay reasonable prices. Not over inflated prices because only few people can farm it or have a chance. Anyone trying to make it harder for everyone else is just being selfish.

Edit: just in case it comes across that way, I apologize in advance if you take personal offense to this. That's not my intention.

[Gungniir]

You're reading what you want and taking things out of context.

I said another reason why the economy is broken, not the reason, there is a massive difference.


You are still going on about how people aren't "equal" to you. All because the clock on their steam profile reads a less number than you. Progression is broken and this gave people an opportunity to at least get to 1.5k stats and then try to start the real farming.

No one who farmed KG when it was first released went from <1k stats to >4k.

Besides, you most likely were able to scale the wall while it was still a fence (no copters or Sharken or possibly djinn) whilst others are standing at the bottom of a heavily fortified castle armed with a spoon.

The fact is, the more people on equal stats, the better as that gives us more opportunity to play with better players, increasing our chances of success.


The drive in this game for me is getting perfect items, regardless of how long that takes. If I have to trade, I want to pay reasonable prices. Not over inflated prices because only few people can farm it or have a chance. Anyone trying to make it harder for everyone else is just being selfish.

I came into nightmare with the release of sharken. You know, that point where everyone was like WTF MY WALLS MOVE?

I made my wall jump like any smart player would. When I was at the 1k range after farming endless spires wave 1 on my apprentice for hours and hours and finally had enough to gear to start some doing some early maps on NM, I earned my cube with a couple friends.
I sold that cube for 16b (at the time was quite the sum) and then went around to every afk shop and found the best deal for the best stats on trans/myths I could find for all of my builders.

My story strictly, not important can skip this paragraph =>
Then went to aquanos seeing as it was the last map around at the time and personally my favorite. I worked my nuts off trying to beat it on survival NMHC (no mm). After getting 30 on there I went to MM. I spent easily a week on MM trying to alter my old build and couldn't get it to work. After spending another week working on variations I finally beat NMHCMM Aqua, and it felt good. Then I realized I was at the boring part, getting better gear.


The inflation problem you think isn't related to people just making all the mana tokens in the world?
No of course it's greedy people who just sell for REASONABLE prices BASED on an infinite supply of mana (if you don't think it's infinite leave an afk shop open for 5 hours during the afternoon with nothing but crap myth\trans at 600m. Watch how much mana you end up with.) And therefore do not sell for mana and instead take TRADES ONLY.

Bartering is NOT equal to greed. It is called accepting the market TRENDY gave us.

If you have a problem with the economy talk to trendy's dev team and ask them why this game isn't server side. That's the SOLE problem with this game as it currently stands.

I have no problem with people trying to break the 1.5-2k range. I have problems with people expecting to get to 3.5k+ with no effort involved.
MY problem is when people are handed supremes\ults for NO EFFORT (kings game prebuff & somewhat post nerf's).
Good trans is a different story entirely (WHICH 90+% of the game CAN BE BEATEN WITH)

And the drive for perfect gear, that's my drive too. The problem is the gear drops at such abysmally low rates that's it's IMPOSSIBLE to get 5+ ult builders sets and 1-? DPS sets for EVERYBODY in the game.

Considering most people USE their best drops and let's just say if your luck is as bad as mine you get a total of 1-2 sup\ult armors EVER (I've had exactly 1 drop of each through roughly 200 hours of farming around half of which prior to ult's being around, supreme + ultimate armor wise)
.... let's just say that's not anywhere close to the roughly 30+ armor pieces TOTAL you'd need (And that's just hoping they all fit together nicely in dps\tower, armor type, not low resists\upgrades etc....)

it's late here and I may be drifting in circles discussion wise, I dunno but this covers enough that I care to cover at the moment time to watch a movie with the girl and crash looking forward to a reply.

[classic22]

I came into nightmare with the release of sharken. You know, that point where everyone was like WTF MY WALLS MOVE?

I made my wall jump like any smart player would. When I was at the 1k range after farming endless spires wave 1 on my apprentice for hours and hours and finally had enough to gear to start some doing some early maps on NM, I earned my cube with a couple friends.
I sold that cube for 16b (at the time was quite the sum) and then went around to every afk shop and found the best deal for the best stats on trans/myths I could find for all of my builders.

My story strictly, not important can skip this paragraph =>
Then went to aquanos seeing as it was the last map around at the time and personally my favorite. I worked my nuts off trying to beat it on survival NMHC (no mm). After getting 30 on there I went to MM. I spent easily a week on MM trying to alter my old build and couldn't get it to work. After spending another week working on variations I finally beat NMHCMM Aqua, and it felt good. Then I realized I was at the boring part, getting better gear.


The inflation problem you think isn't related to people just making all the mana tokens in the world?
No of course it's greedy people who just sell for REASONABLE prices BASED on an infinite supply of mana (if you don't think it's infinite leave an afk shop open for 5 hours during the afternoon with nothing but crap myth\trans at 600m. Watch how much mana you end up with.) And therefore do not sell for mana and instead take TRADES ONLY.

Bartering is NOT equal to greed. It is called accepting the market TRENDY gave us.

If you have a problem with the economy talk to trendy's dev team and ask them why this game isn't server side. That's the SOLE problem with this game as it currently stands.

I have no problem with people trying to break the 1.5-2k range. I have problems with people expecting to get to 3.5k+ with no effort involved.
MY problem is when people are handed supremes\ults for NO EFFORT (kings game prebuff & somewhat post nerf's).
Good trans is a different story entirely (WHICH 90+% of the game CAN BE BEATEN WITH)

And the drive for perfect gear, that's my drive too. The problem is the gear drops at such abysmally low rates that's it's IMPOSSIBLE to get 5+ ult builders sets and 1-? DPS sets for EVERYBODY in the game.

Considering most people USE their best drops and let's just say if your luck is as bad as mine you get a total of 1-2 sup\ult armors EVER (I've had exactly 1 drop of each through roughly 200 hours of farming around half of which prior to ult's being around, supreme + ultimate armor wise)
.... let's just say that's not anywhere close to the roughly 30+ armor pieces TOTAL you'd need (And that's just hoping they all fit together nicely in dps\tower, armor type, not low resists\upgrades etc....)

it's late here and I may be drifting in circles discussion wise, I dunno but this covers enough that I care to cover at the moment time to watch a movie with the girl and crash looking forward to a reply.

I agree that you should have to work, but working weeks and weeks for such little progression is just silly.

The hardest part is not getting over 3k, it's getting past the 1-2k wall. That's just silly imo.

It's great you put in tons of effort, that's obviously been rewarded with good loots.

What I disagree with is the mentality of "must remain on top of this mountain alone".

You said it yourself, you were playing pre-copter. That's a huge advantage. Heaps of other scaled the wall pre-djinn. Another massive advantage.

All I'm saying is give people a chance.

KG never rewarded sups or ults that were actually useable, and now it doesn't even offer trans until at least wave 20. I just can't see how anyone could think it's easy when my 2k builders are barely clearing it.

The problem is those on the top just want to prolong their reign as long as they can. As if to say other aren't worthy. That's just how I see it. Enjoy your movie, I don't need an instant reply :)

[Gungniir]

I agree that you should have to work, but working weeks and weeks for such little progression is just silly.

The hardest part is not getting over 3k, it's getting past the 1-2k wall. That's just silly imo.

It's great you put in tons of effort, that's obviously been rewarded with good loots.

What I disagree with is the mentality of "must remain on top of this mountain alone".

You said it yourself, you were playing pre-copter. That's a huge advantage. Heaps of other scaled the wall pre-djinn. Another massive advantage.

All I'm saying is give people a chance.

KG never rewarded sups or ults that were actually useable, and now it doesn't even offer trans until at least wave 20. I just can't see how anyone could think it's easy when my 2k builders are barely clearing it.

The problem is those on the top just want to prolong their reign as long as they can. As if to say other aren't worthy. That's just how I see it. Enjoy your movie, I don't need an instant reply :)

Crappy movie is crappy. Okay I should of been more specific about the sup\ult part, My bad.

I have no problem with other people hitting the same area of loot I am in & I do understand the problem of coptors. I have an irl friend who just started and only just hit 74 on a couple of characters the past couple of days. I told him half the fun of the game is getting past the hard parts yourself, it's a lot more rewarding. but I told him as soon as he hits 78 and can beat a lot of it himself he's going to be hooked up hella haha.

Getting off topic im sleepy x.x

Also, I agree having to put so much effort to break the wall is slightly ridiculous, but did you not feel all the happier having done it? I don't know when you started, like you said the earlier the better... but I started just before the coptor wall was born [admittedly a rough one]... sharken was NOT an easy wall to break through either.

If I hadn't been able to get my companion cube I would of been stuck for a very long time... however not everyone is smart enough to get their companion cube, and an even lesser amount of people are wise with what they do with it. I for one researched heavily into every detail of this game so I could go about gearing every single character appropriately and progress as quickly as posisble, and I've got 700 hours behind me....

I can't imagine anyone being much faster than me at having so many characters sup\ult'd (my primary builders-harps\minions\auras all sup\ult with my secondary builders-traps\ev waller\ev buffer\fireballs all are in high end trans) I had a lot of lucky breaks with trades but I suppose if someone is luckier than me with RNG drops [which isn't hard to beat I've had 1 sup and 1 ult armor ever... come on trendy really?] I suppose it's POSSIBLE but that is a lot of game time to reach the plateau of this game and especially since I consider that QUICK I can't imagine what an AVERAGE climb to the top takes

KG for me is afkable, NMHCMM I started on wave 20 PRIOR to BOTH nerfs and had a rough couple of waves then everything was maxed and I was back to afking waves 25\6-30
(everything I did was posted here, the build was initially during it's easy mode, I didn't realize it was so stupidly easy at first til after I made the guide, then edited in the end of my post is me facing the REAL map [prior to any nerfs it's already received] http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?74823-GUIDE-Kings-Game-NMHCMM-to-30-3-AFK-s )

Anyway. High end sup\ults are generally sold for just that (now a days) high end sup\ults. It's sadly the only fair way to trade since "hackers" can endlessly spawn mana willy nilly like.

Until this game is brought server side, there is no end in sight for hackers for this game. It's a sad truth that this game despite having it's own very large following, will surely die if this is not done (Mark my words.)

[classic22]

Crappy movie is crappy. Okay I should of been more specific about the sup\ult part, My bad.

I have no problem with other people hitting the same area of loot I am in & I do understand the problem of coptors. I have an irl friend who just started and only just hit 74 on a couple of characters the past couple of days. I told him half the fun of the game is getting past the hard parts yourself, it's a lot more rewarding. but I told him as soon as he hits 78 and can beat a lot of it himself he's going to be hooked up hella haha.

Getting off topic im sleepy x.x

Also, I agree having to put so much effort to break the wall is slightly ridiculous, but did you not feel all the happier having done it? I don't know when you started, like you said the earlier the better... but I started just before the coptor wall was born [admittedly a rough one]... sharken was NOT an easy wall to break through either.

If I hadn't been able to get my companion cube I would of been stuck for a very long time... however not everyone is smart enough to get their companion cube, and an even lesser amount of people are wise with what they do with it. I for one researched heavily into every detail of this game so I could go about gearing every single character appropriately and progress as quickly as posisble, and I've got 700 hours behind me....

I can't imagine anyone being much faster than me at having so many characters sup\ult'd (my primary builders-harps\minions\auras all sup\ult with my secondary builders-traps\ev waller\ev buffer\fireballs all are in high end trans) I had a lot of lucky breaks with trades but I suppose if someone is luckier than me with RNG drops [which isn't hard to beat I've had 1 sup and 1 ult armor ever... come on trendy really?] I suppose it's POSSIBLE but that is a lot of game time to reach the plateau of this game and especially since I consider that QUICK I can't imagine what an AVERAGE climb to the top takes

KG for me is afkable, NMHCMM I started on wave 20 PRIOR to BOTH nerfs and had a rough couple of waves then everything was maxed and I was back to afking waves 25\6-30
(everything I did was posted here, the build was initially during it's easy mode, I didn't realize it was so stupidly easy at first til after I made the guide, then edited in the end of my post is me facing the REAL map [prior to any nerfs it's already received] http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?74823-GUIDE-Kings-Game-NMHCMM-to-30-3-AFK-s )

Anyway. High end sup\ults are generally sold for just that (now a days) high end sup\ults. It's sadly the only fair way to trade since "hackers" can endlessly spawn mana willy nilly like.

Until this game is brought server side, there is no end in sight for hackers for this game. It's a sad truth that this game despite having it's own very large following, will surely die if this is not done (Mark my words.)

They always are when girls choose :/

Back on topic.

I agree that mana hackers are a contributing problem, half of that problem exists due to the ridiculous high cost in upgrading. That's neither here nor there though.


Do not get me wrong please, I enjoy a challenge and this game is the only game I play. Purely and simply because of the unique challenge it provides. There is a time where a challenge turns into a cheese grater. That is making it less fun.

I do understand why things shouldn't be handed to people on a silver platter. I get that.

What I personally do not get is why we have to break from a logical progression path (read about that below) and mindlessly farm a "random" map in hopes of better gear. What KG did bring was a chance for everyone to bridge that silly part and develop more into the tougher maps.

Let's face it, 1.5k stats do not guarantee completion of Sky City or the likes on NMHC survival. But those 1.5k stats do enable you to get started. And that's all the lower end players are looking for. A start. Not end game, a start at mid game.

What I think progression should look like;

1. Start on easy or medium campaign, depending on your skill level.

2. Progress to hard campaign, medium challenges.

3. Progress to insane campaign, hard challenges.

4. Progress to insane challenges.

5. Progress to Insane Shards content, start NM campaign.

6. Progress to insane survival.

7. Progress to insane survival mix mode.

8. Progress to NM Shards.

9. Progress to NM Shards survival.

10. Progress to NM Shards survival mix mode.

All modes should be completed on HC, that's the only way to play realistically, and should be explained better in game. That's not the end game players fault though, that's just proof of their ability to adapt and play the game "better" than casuals.

That said, casuals should be able to experience end game. This is not an MMO. This originally started as a game you could invest a hundred hours in and be end game. The goal posts have shifted but the players haven't been educated.

All I'm asking for, as a well geared player, is that everyone have a chance. Low range trans is not something to brag about and hence should be easier to get.

I never agreed with the difficulty of the original KG, but when it was buffed, it was taken to a whole new tier of difficulty for what it was meant for.

[Rand0m1zat10n]

and now it doesn't even offer trans until at least wave 20.

Aha, no.

I've found Trans on Wave 15 NMHC. This was yesterday.

[Wally]

I don't understand why a game should revolve around work... in the end the objective is to enjoy yourself when you are playing the game.

However, for me, the fact that I keep hitting this Wall 'O Doom is severely detracting from my enjoyment of the game. So is it then to much to ask to make sure there is no more Wall 'O Doom, and that the progression is ironed out better so people aren't going to feel like they are wasting their time. And that is what I always mean when I say a good RPG has no grind (or it is barely noticeable). I don't mean it literally I just mean that because of the progression feeling naturally that you are grinding the monsters by just playing the game and having fun. However if you have to kill the same mobs in the same way in a massive amount of time for nearly no improvement... I can tell you after a while you get Fed-up... i'm at that point now.

And for saying you have to have 900 hours before you are entitled to have my kind of gear... I can easilly do that, since it is called letting the PC Idle with DD started up. It is just 1.5 months of letting the game idle. Not really something to base something which you should or should not have...

[Lourishinfox]

What I think progression should look like;

1. Start on easy or medium campaign, depending on your skill level.

2. Progress to hard campaign, medium challenges.

3. Progress to insane campaign, hard challenges.

4. Progress to insane challenges.

5. Progress to Insane Shards content, start NM campaign.

6. Progress to insane survival.

7. Progress to insane survival mix mode.

8. Progress to NM Shards.

9. Progress to NM Shards survival.

10. Progress to NM Shards survival mix mode.

All modes should be completed on HC, that's the only way to play realistically, and should be explained better in game. That's not the end game players fault though, that's just proof of their ability to adapt and play the game "better" than casuals.

That said, casuals should be able to experience end game. This is not an MMO. This originally started as a game you could invest a hundred hours in and be end game. The goal posts have shifted but the players haven't been educated.

All I'm asking for, as a well geared player, is that everyone have a chance. Low range trans is not something to brag about and hence should be easier to get.

I never agreed with the difficulty of the original KG, but when it was buffed, it was taken to a whole new tier of difficulty for what it was meant for.

Thats pretty much how i did progression as you stated above (no HC until i got into insane).
I go a boost in NM though. (My sister friended a hacker i never knew about, i blocked him. Game no fun with hacks...) i was sent an invite to a NM Glitt. The stats i saw were insane and thought thats what my stats were gonna be one day.

Though, most of my time during the intro to NM was actually that neat guide someone made in December. Doing spires Wave 1 and opening chests. It was so simple back then the only trouble were ogres (i though Hero damage was better than base damage). Farmed that map then got into Misty. Started farming campaign like the person said to in that guide.

I came to the forums and asked someone to help me fighting the boss. (HC was added around this time). Successfully done it. Started farming glitt for mana and levels. Met a few nice peopel through my runs and now i play private with them (Not much help, but nice to have some company :) ).

I started playing misty survival just before djinn. After many runs and an amazing amount of mana and mana capping over 6 waves. (200mill cap :S , just dumped it into my current armours.)

After finally making all my chars decently geared i go to AFK shops to seek some upgrades. i normally go once my mana is capped.
After more runs i finally got nice and better gear i start farming more mana (again). to upgrade my tower stats. After many runs i finally beat Misty survival NMHC non-mix using Kandars pre-EV build. Told my success to my friends.

Djinn were added and that changed quite a bit since i couldnt reach wave 20 anymore :/

the one thing i thought was great was on the first try on Moraggo non HC i beat it. The boss was sorta easier than i thought. one of my walls got chopped down and i almost lost (crystal had 5-40 HP!) (this was during the release of EV and i didnt have wall gear). I didnt even try in moraggo survival because of its size.

Decided to return to levelling chars since 78 was out. Though i never found any trans. I did the new achievements. NM HC Chalanges. a few were hard ill admit. Finally finished them. I honestly think i took a break after so many glitt runs. i didnt try Atlantis until a little after the shark nerf. (i played a game on some random map, i saw sharks as OP, sorta drew me away.)

After i decided to stopped my addiction with TF2 i got back into the game. Goodness do i not remember those days. I can tell you, somewhere in there i gt decent loot to hit beyond 1.5k.

i dont remember even how i hit up to this point when i got back.

i know i did trans survivalist with a friend. On the day i was gonna do the last map, my friend gets VACed. This was also the morning of Summoner release. he had money in his steam wallet prepared to buy it. It wasnt a good day ill admit that. I dont want t go too far into this but he wasnt a hacker from what i can tell. Mighta been something left open ad detected (it was a DD VAC ban. not global, he could still play l4d2).

The turning point is when someone helped me with Atlantis. That changed a lot for me really, it might be where i got to where i am now. I was stuck since the floor gets water and tentacles regenerate slowly (wasnt killing fast enough).

Started doing solo NMHC aqua with kandars build. Never got so far. but the XP was great that i hit 83 in no time. Started farming NMHc campaign for the fancy monk staff. After running with a new friend i got a nice supreme staff. It was nice for me at the time. I never realized how great a monk is.

Never got into trading. ideally i only done a few trades. unless you count AFK shops. Those were pretty much my intro to NM.

I dont use shops anymore neither do i host any. Ive done so many Atlantis NMHC Surv runs. yesterday i realized i dont even upgrade my gear that often (i used all my tokens and actually got a massive boost in stats i never knew i could of gotten.)

moving onto he next thing you said.

yes. HC is in fact a great way to realize what has happened to cause the death of you. and if something goes down, what ways can you stop it from going down. The one thing thats nice about this game is you can place things anywhere. When i first started playing my death wasnt a biggie since i could respawn in 3 seconds. When HC came out i needed to make a few adjustments every time i or my towers died.
If its one thing you can see a new player do after time, is thinking how that tower will affect their survivability and crystal's.

I had no idea what to do for Wyverns on magus when i first tried it. The thing i changed was putting my towers further back (stairs nearest crystal) and using less DU there since the towers had more time to attack them (i used to have them at the bottom of the stairs. 1 wall for each staircase. 6). used the extra DU i had to place Magic missiles here the wyverns come flyin to.
Thats sorta the idea of what you said. Lets just pretend HC was no crystal dying back then :p

Im no casual. Some of my friends who i gifted the game were.
I played with them after they did a wells run. Did they have a clue what to do? Barely. All they knew was to defend the crystal against mobs. thir tower placement was super-close as they though a closer, the faster. Didnt appear true (they did play TD games before, theyve never played a TD with mob-spawn-protection). it wasnt until after i helped them out did they get used to the game. the Casuals hardly experience end-game anymore since NM (unless you declare insane glitt runs are endgame, back then this was the case.)

i like the new KG. honestly, when i saw hitmonchan post in a thread about kings game being to easy and liking that it was easy, i thought we would be seeing a permanent source for people to hit end0game easily.
KG is now more difficult in a sense i cant just place a wall of magic missiles anymore, i have to place actual needed towers now. The map has become more difficult for me and a new source for items since Atlantis runs can get boring... And he fact its avaliable to all is nice since some of my other friends who dont have shards can experience high-game Nightmare mode.

My sister got me into Dungeon defenders Ranked. Here i am explaining how i got to where i am and how i started going on the forums :>

So glad i decided to try this game again one day. Met so many nice people and its still fun as game. Thank you Trendy for this game. (it was in my buy-on-sale-never-play-games and i got many games in that list which is now my backlog of unplayed games)

[Thaelyn]

If you worked your *** off to get 4k+ builders and the last thing trendy releases is a stepping stone map, you'd pretty pissed you just spent over 500 hours to see them only cater to casuals too.

The biggest problem with this reasoning, in my opinion, Gungniir, is that Trendy isn't catering to casuals with King'S Game. KG is throwing casuals a bone. The fact that they released a single map that lower end players could do on nightmare in no way means they've done a 180, regardless of when they released it. The fact remains that the vast majority of nightmare content is geared toward high stat players and your objection to a stepping stone map only serves to make you come across as an elitist jerk who is motivated by the factors Classic suggested.

[DarkSoul]

Excuse me, since when did you start to believe that DD should be tailored to cater **your own likings** and not a global player base?? Man, and I was talking to someone about deluded self-important pr****.

You seem to be missing the point, instead of the nerd rage, realise that this is not "my own likings" im posting on behalf of anyone who starts the game now (seen a few in pubs) and people who dont use forums e.g. the silent majority of the player base, It is an educated games design practice that would allow players to PLAY the content and allow them progress. The difficulty can be done by the in games systems as I posted above, using waves/mobs, hc/mm and multiplayer.

The point is Trendy's devs are lazy and do Blanket nerfs/buffs becuase they cant be bothered to think out side the box and play with spawns and wave difficulties.

Im not disrespecting Trendy because all devs these days seem to do these banket nerfs/buff. Its bad management and poor games design, it has nothing to do with my wants. If a company did this they be FAR more successful than anyone else.

An example of this is all maps should of been like what misty was when it first game out that the first 1-3 waves are 500-700 stats, 5-10 900-1000, 11-15 1200+, 16+ scaling accordingly so that people with end game gear can complete maps, and people without can at least PLAY THEM and have some success if they spend time PLAYING those maps.

Cause atm there is a lot of content that is not accessible without X stats, this is a major flaw.

This is not a MMO or WOW Clone, Stats shoud not effect what content can be played just how successful you are at playing it. Or how easy it is for you to play it.

In my view if Trendy are thinking on the lines we don't want to upset the elite, they need to change their line of thinking. Why you say well its obvious if you stopped tailoring to the elite and tailored to causal's there would be more elite AND then you can make uber hard maps that are end game only and have it in game text like the multiplayer maps do.

As its been said before there are the Elite who are selfish and want to keep their standing at all costs. Trendy should LOL at such people take steps to allow causal players to get to the Elites levels.

Also by doing this you would increase the number of people farming good gear thus increasing the supply of good items and there a decreasing in the cost of items. What overall is better for the economy. + it decreases the need for hacked items cause people will be able to get their own 100% legit items.

Common sense: Hacking can never be stopped, doing anything to prevent hacking will only increase hacking.
they way you stop hacking is by making it not beneficial for hackers to hack, e.g. by tailoring to causal fixes all these issues.

[Gungniir]

The biggest problem with this reasoning, in my opinion, Gungniir, is that Trendy isn't catering to casuals with King'S Game. KG is throwing casuals a bone. The fact that they released a single map that lower end players could do on nightmare in no way means they've done a 180, regardless of when they released it. The fact remains that the vast majority of nightmare content is geared toward high stat players and your objection to a stepping stone map only serves to make you come across as an elitist jerk who is motivated by the factors Classic suggested.

You missed my key point. It's the final map they have officially announced for "any time soon" or something along those lines was how they put it. If kings would of came out prior to CD we'd be talking a different story here, but it didn't.

[Gungniir]

They always are when girls choose :/

Back on topic.

I agree that mana hackers are a contributing problem, half of that problem exists due to the ridiculous high cost in upgrading. That's neither here nor there though.


Do not get me wrong please, I enjoy a challenge and this game is the only game I play. Purely and simply because of the unique challenge it provides. There is a time where a challenge turns into a cheese grater. That is making it less fun.

I do understand why things shouldn't be handed to people on a silver platter. I get that.

What I personally do not get is why we have to break from a logical progression path (read about that below) and mindlessly farm a "random" map in hopes of better gear. What KG did bring was a chance for everyone to bridge that silly part and develop more into the tougher maps.

Let's face it, 1.5k stats do not guarantee completion of Sky City or the likes on NMHC survival. But those 1.5k stats do enable you to get started. And that's all the lower end players are looking for. A start. Not end game, a start at mid game.

What I think progression should look like;

1. Start on easy or medium campaign, depending on your skill level.

2. Progress to hard campaign, medium challenges.

3. Progress to insane campaign, hard challenges.

4. Progress to insane challenges.

5. Progress to Insane Shards content, start NM campaign.

6. Progress to insane survival.

7. Progress to insane survival mix mode.

8. Progress to NM Shards.

9. Progress to NM Shards survival.

10. Progress to NM Shards survival mix mode.

All modes should be completed on HC, that's the only way to play realistically, and should be explained better in game. That's not the end game players fault though, that's just proof of their ability to adapt and play the game "better" than casuals.

That said, casuals should be able to experience end game. This is not an MMO. This originally started as a game you could invest a hundred hours in and be end game. The goal posts have shifted but the players haven't been educated.

All I'm asking for, as a well geared player, is that everyone have a chance. Low range trans is not something to brag about and hence should be easier to get.

I never agreed with the difficulty of the original KG, but when it was buffed, it was taken to a whole new tier of difficulty for what it was meant for.

I agree with a lot of what you said (especially about the female picking the movie cough..)
Anyway. The way to fix progression is up insanes loot tables of myths, problem solved.
I started this game with ryukaki's hard mode apprentice guide. It taught me everything I needed to know to get started and play through the entire campaign solo on hard. It was and is a VERY nice guide.

The sole problem is that insane is a USELESS difficulty. After you beat hard you have a few craptastic godlys, then go to insane and now have a timer and a huge difficulty gap (in some places more \ less than others). And since this tier of difficulty just drops THE SAME gear as hard only VERY slightly improved, it is completely pointless (progressionwise) as a difficulty. I for one went from hard difficulty directly to nightmare farming, it's clunky and I agree it shouldn't be. But having 1 map give out massive amounts of good loot for no effort involved is not the way to solve it.


Also iirc aqua dropped supremes\ults as early as wave 14\15 I can't prove it that's just what I remember in the past though




The biggest problem with this reasoning, in my opinion, Gungniir, is that Trendy isn't catering to casuals with King'S Game. KG is throwing casuals a bone. The fact that they released a single map that lower end players could do on nightmare in no way means they've done a 180, regardless of when they released it. The fact remains that the vast majority of nightmare content is geared toward high stat players and your objection to a stepping stone map only serves to make you come across as an elitist jerk who is motivated by the factors Classic suggested.

First off, why don't you go ahead and read more than one post before you turn into a smart ***, k?
throwing casuals a bone and catering the final map that has even been officially announced is a very different thing. Making a map that everyone can farm sup\ults on by starting on wave 28 with absolutely NO stats, whatsoever, is EXACTLY a 180. They fixed it and now are reducing it slowly into a pile of crud again with constant nerfs, I felt it was perfectly tuned outside of coptors being too high\far away. After it's buffing I was still able to use my same build and start as late as wave 20(which most people understand as the difficulty jump wave in most survivals). I felt that was a very reasonable tuning considering most of builders are 3.5-4k+

Be smart before being a smart ***, kthxbai

[Rand0m1zat10n]

An example of this is all maps should of been like what misty was when it first game out that the first 1-3 waves are 500-700 stats, 5-10 900-1000, 11-15 1200+, 16+ scaling accordingly so that people with end game gear can complete maps, and people without can at least PLAY THEM and have some success if they spend time PLAYING those maps.

Cause atm there is a lot of content that is not accessible without X stats, this is a major flaw.

This is not a MMO or WOW Clone, Stats shoud not effect what content can be played just how successful you are at playing it. Or how easy it is for you to play it.

I'm noticing some inconsistencies here...

So you're saying that we should be able to do maps with certain stats, but should also be able to play Sky City NMHCMM Wave 30 Survival with 0 stats?

Stats make sense. If they're too low, you're too weak. If your stats are high, it should be easier for you. Do you want people just starting out and people with 4k stats to be on equal ground?

If you want stats to be removed altogether, what would be the reason to play this game? None. The gear and better stats are the drive to keep playing.

The only problem is negatives are way too abundant.

[IcyClaw]

I'm noticing some inconsistencies here...

So you're saying that we should be able to do maps with certain stats, but should also be able to play Sky City NMHCMM Wave 30 Survival with 0 stats?

Stats make sense. If they're too low, you're too weak. If your stats are high, it should be easier for you. Do you want people just starting out and people with 4k stats to be on equal ground?

If you want stats to be removed altogether, what would be the reason to play this game? None. The gear and better stats are the drive to keep playing.

The only problem is negatives are way too abundant.

I think you misunderstood. He meant that people with high-end stats can complete (finish every wave) maps while people with low-end stats can just work their way up the stat thresh-hold on the same map. Nobody said they wanted to complete a map with garbage gear....

[Rand0m1zat10n]

Oh nevermind. Sorry, I do seem to have misread it.

But anyways, your stats aren't stopping you from playing a map. It's just stopping you from succeeding at it.

[Wally]

First off, why don't you go ahead and read more than one post before you turn into a smart ***, k?
throwing casuals a bone and catering the final map that has even been officially announced is a very different thing. Making a map that everyone can farm sup\ults on by starting on wave 28 with absolutely NO stats, whatsoever, is EXACTLY a 180. They fixed it and now are reducing it slowly into a pile of crud again with constant nerfs, I felt it was perfectly tuned outside of coptors being too high\far away. After it's buffing I was still able to use my same build and start as late as wave 20(which most people understand as the difficulty jump wave in most survivals). I felt that was a very reasonable tuning considering most of builders are 3.5-4k+

Be smart before being a smart ***, kthxbai

There is no reason whatsoever to have any specific map be a new map targetted for a high end people. There is no reason to consider king's game as the logical progression after sky city. It is even so that it seems logical to consider CD as the last map targetted at the end gamers seeing as this map closes the entire storyline of the game for the moment.

Any additional maps can have other targets. The intention, per definition of Tsuda, was for the kings map to be a catch up or throw the casual a bone map.

As the map stands now, it is still to much of an end game map instead of an in between map for the lower end people to catch up to the higher end people so they can enjoy the rest of the game without coimpletely (notice I didn't state partial) invalidate the progress the high end gamers have had.

So can I please suggest that you try to look at the map from this side instead of baseline considering any new map as the next difficulty? And based on this premise, I would like for you to reevaluate your opinion on this map. We know that how the map was at the start was a tad to easy. But as it still stands, it is still to hard for the people it was aimed at.

The casuals and not the people like gugniir with their 3-4k builders.

[Gungniir]

There is no reason whatsoever to have any specific map be a new map targetted for a high end people. There is no reason to consider king's game as the logical progression after sky city. It is even so that it seems logical to consider CD as the last map targetted at the end gamers seeing as this map closes the entire storyline of the game for the moment.

Any additional maps can have other targets. The intention, per definition of Tsuda, was for the kings map to be a catch up or throw the casual a bone map.

As the map stands now, it is still to much of an end game map instead of an in between map for the lower end people to catch up to the higher end people so they can enjoy the rest of the game without coimpletely (notice I didn't state partial) invalidate the progress the high end gamers have had.

So can I please suggest that you try to look at the map from this side instead of baseline considering any new map as the next difficulty? And based on this premise, I would like for you to reevaluate your opinion on this map. We know that how the map was at the start was a tad to easy. But as it still stands, it is still to hard for the people it was aimed at.

The casuals and not the people like gugniir with their 3-4k builders.

You aren't understanding my point.

If you've done everything, new content needs to be WORTH doing for those who've already done everything else.

[Zen00]

Just because it's new content doesn't mean it has to be catered to end gamers. New content is new content, no matter what it is, and isn't parceled into just being things to entice end game hard core players to keep playing.

[HellBringer]

You aren't understanding my point.

If you've done everything, new content needs to be WORTH doing for those who've already done everything else.

If you have done everything else then guess what.

Congratulations you have completed the game! *streamers and whistle noises*

This map wasnt targeted for players with 2k+ stats, being new content is irrelevant.

[Thaelyn]

First off, why don't you go ahead and read more than one post before you turn into a smart ***, k?
throwing casuals a bone and catering the final map that has even been officially announced is a very different thing. Making a map that everyone can farm sup\ults on by starting on wave 28 with absolutely NO stats, whatsoever, is EXACTLY a 180. They fixed it and now are reducing it slowly into a pile of crud again with constant nerfs, I felt it was perfectly tuned outside of coptors being too high\far away. After it's buffing I was still able to use my same build and start as late as wave 20(which most people understand as the difficulty jump wave in most survivals). I felt that was a very reasonable tuning considering most of builders are 3.5-4k+

Be smart before being a smart ***, kthxbai

I did read every one of your posts in this thread before I made mine. Doesn't change my opinion that you're acting like an elitist jerk.


This is the type of game where you get what you put in. If you don't put in the same effort I very much feel you do NOT deserve the same quality of gear.
Period. Elitist douche attitude.


Sure we can all have nice things, but it is a complete slap in the face to have them thrown to noobs when others have had to "work" to get them

It's just like WoW, I quit because they catered to casuals. If TE caters to casuals (which they haven't yet, but I can see them heading in the direction but god I hope not) I will stop playing this game and not look back. And again


I have no problem with other people hitting the same area of loot I am in Just so long as they do it in a manner that you approve of, right? Quite elitist and self important.

As has been pointed out to you by Classic


No one who farmed KG when it was first released went from 4k.
and

KG never rewarded sups or ults that were actually useable, and now it doesn't even offer trans until at least wave 20. I just can't see how anyone could think it's easy when my 2k builders are barely clearing it.

Sure, I'm an ***. The fact remains, though, that you are what you are as well.

[イナルナ]

Anyone that doesn't have 3.5k stats or higher CLEARLY shouldn't be allowed to farm King's Game. Honestly if you haven't put the work into it you don't deserve such an easy way out. Why should someone else get an easy way than anyone else? You aren't special etc etc

[classic22]

I did read every one of your posts in this thread before I made mine. Doesn't change my opinion that you're acting like an elitist jerk.

Elitist douche attitude.

And again

Just so long as they do it in a manner that you approve of, right? Quite elitist and self important.

As has been pointed out to you by Classic


and


Sure, I'm an ***. The fact remains, though, that you are what you are as well.

Keep it civil, why bash me me if I'm saying something you agree with?


Anyone that doesn't have 3.5k stats or higher CLEARLY shouldn't be allowed to farm King's Game. Honestly if you haven't put the work into it you don't deserve such an easy way out. Why should someone else get an easy way than anyone else? You aren't special etc etc

Coming in here and flaming others is not going to win you any prizes except unnecessary attention.

Had you bothered to read Tsuda's post, you might have half a clue what you're talking about.

[Drumstix42]

I thought the original complaint about this thread was Survival being hard, and not just the normal map on Nightmare. Not really sure now.

But I don't think the map is very hard on campaign mode, but survival is a different story.

[Rand0m1zat10n]

I thought the original complaint about this thread was Survival being hard, and not just the normal map on Nightmare. Not really sure now.

But I don't think the map is very hard on campaign mode, but survival is a different story.

There wasn't any original complaint. I was just pleased with the 7.41 notes.

People ended up derailing it and going into an argument about the difficulty of the game and progression and such.

[Zen00]

I thought the original complaint about this thread was Survival being hard, and not just the normal map on Nightmare. Not really sure now.

But I don't think the map is very hard on campaign mode, but survival is a different story.

On campaign it's currently balanced pretty well for 1-1.5k stat characters, I think they can complete it with lots of hard work and repairing.

However survival is still unbalanced.

[Toprem]

If you worked your *** off to get 4k+ builders and the last thing trendy releases is a stepping stone map, you'd pretty pissed you just spent over 500 hours to see them only cater to casuals too.

Being pissed is one thing, which I probably would be, but trying to get Trendy to change stuff so those below me couldn't have a decent shot at stuff is another. I wouldn't do that since Im not a douche. I've already dumped 556 hours into DD, and my characters other than my wall builder have at best like 1.5K stats, let alone 4K.


This is the type of game where you get what you put in. If you don't put in the same effort I very much feel you do NOT deserve the same quality of gear.
Period.

Except not since you are at the mercy of the RNG.

[Zen00]

Being pissed is one thing, which I probably would be, but trying to get Trendy to change stuff so those below me couldn't have a decent shot at stuff is another. I wouldn't do that since Im not a douche. I've already dumped 556 hours into DD, and my characters other than my wall builder have at best like 1.5K stats, let alone 4K.



Except not since you are at the mercy of the RNG.

Same here, 400 hours in and just barely breaking 2k stats.

[Wally]

You aren't understanding my point.

If you've done everything, new content needs to be WORTH doing for those who've already done everything else.

I did understand your point. But I am disagreeing with your opinion.

You contineously panter on about that new content needs to be there solely for the high end people playing. What I am saying however there is a new map that that doesn't mean that this map should bring new loot that should be rewarding for the high end. Maps can have different targets. And maps van be entertaining just for what they are, it is a change from the maps that you are used to.

It isn't because of the drops that I do certain maps, although I won't disagree that it is an extra incentive. But if TE had ever introduced the shards maps without introducing statsinflation map upon map, I would have enjoyed the game much more. Since I would have had choice what I would like to do. instead of being funneled into 1 and only 1 map before I can progress onto the next.

And in the end we play to have fun, not to work. Some grind sometimes may improve the game (by giving an extra objective), but it should in my opinion never ever ever be the sole focus.

This is my opinion, and I do know I'm not alone with it.

PS : I only got 430 hours invested in this game and am as well at the 1.7k mark. But since copters my progression has been severely impeded. And I would love the game returning to the days before the copters...

[Thaelyn]

Keep it civil Ok. I'll bow out of this one now.


why bash me me if I'm saying something you agree with?Wasn't trying to bash you, but use your words in support of my own. Looking at the post again though, I can see that such is extremely unclear. For that you have my apologies, Classic.

[classic22]

Ok. I'll bow out of this one now.

Wasn't trying to bash you, but use your words in support of my own. Looking at the post again though, I can see that such is extremely unclear. For that you have my apologies, Classic.

No need for an apology, I was just unsure what you were trying to say, and the way I read it was that you were having a go at me. All good.

Sorry for off-topicness.

[DarkSoul]

Anyone that doesn't have 3.5k stats or higher CLEARLY shouldn't be allowed to farm King's Game. Honestly if you haven't put the work into it you don't deserve such an easy way out. Why should someone else get an easy way than anyone else? You aren't special etc etc

Yeah being an elitist jerk is real cool. What work did you REALLY put in. All you REALLY did was play maps BEFORE X mobs/patch nerfs and farmed gear BEFORE other players, That is equivalent to a Un-fair advantage. I'd expect as soon as trendy did a ranked reset and you experienced what the game is like NOW and not when it was when your farmed that gear you do a "180" and be wanting the game to be easier.

Though there would be a high chance you just quit because you now the games not balanced and instead of wanting to improve the quality of the game you want to have everything for yourself for no benefit.

Reason to help casuals
More players to play with at higher stats
Better gear in peoples shops
Increased supply of better gear means decreased prices
friendlier community result in a larger player base e.g. more useful maps in pubs, more money for trendy means larger game budgets for future products + many other benefits

Reason to not help casuals
To make you feel special inside


You missed my key point. It's the final map they have officially announced for "any time soon" or something along those lines was how they put it. If kings would of came out prior to CD we'd be talking a different story here, but it didn't.

When a map is realised is unimportant as long as players can play said map, the currant map can only be played by the elite and that is flawed because the progression to becoming elite is flawed.

Note; my statement is related to dd, if dd was an mmo it be a different topic, dd is a map based content some of that requires to be brought and having brought content not be playable for the majority of the player base is bad imo (e.g. the causals)

Also that "any time soon" only means that they are no longer focusing on making any new maps for DD, e.g. their starting the process of making other games.

[imported_some_guy]

Anyone that doesn't have 3.5k stats or higher CLEARLY shouldn't be allowed to farm King's Game. Honestly if you haven't put the work into it you don't deserve such an easy way out. Why should someone else get an easy way than anyone else? You aren't special etc etc

I only have around 3k stats and I've been farming it. Sorry, I didn't realize I was ruining your gameplay experience. How about I type out a list of all my characters' stats and then you can let me know what maps you approve of me playing on?

[イナルナ]

I love how three people took my post seriously. Sarcasm is hard, huh?

[classic22]

I love how three people took my post seriously. Sarcasm is hard, huh?

Nothing in your post indicated sarcasm...

[Andurian]

Nothing in your post indicated sarcasm...

I read it as sarcasm. The "CLEARLY" and the etc. etc. are pretty good clues.

[classic22]

I read it as sarcasm. The "CLEARLY" and the etc. etc. are pretty good clues.

I'm sorry but I disagree heavily.

When writing sarcasm on the Internet you really have to be over the top. Smilies and key phrases like "/sarcasm" are key.

It's just a fact that it's hard to convey sarcasm over the Internet.

[Wally]

I presumed it to be a sarcastic reply based on his previous denouncements of everything he posted in this one last post.

But yeah you are right, sarcasm is hard to spot in writing.

[iamisom]

I'm sorry but I disagree heavily.

When writing sarcasm on the Internet you really have to be over the top. Smilies and key phrases like "/sarcasm" are key.

It's just a fact that it's hard to convey sarcasm over the Internet.

Truth. I usually write out "winky face" just to let people know.

Something something patch notes.

[relarmane]

Truth. I usually write out "winky face" just to let people know.

Something something patch notes.

Maybe we should implement a sarcasm "font" http://sartalics.com/? Maybe add it next to normal italics?

[Rand0m1zat10n]

Truth. I usually write out "winky face" just to let people know.

Something something patch notes.

So whatever happened to that (even easier) King's Game? Was it dropped, or.. Working on a balance?

Or just not working on this game at all right now?

[Jonzor]

I felt that was a very reasonable tuning considering most of builders are 3.5-4k+

I'm confused... are you saying that if a person has a builder, they usually have 3.5-4k stats or talking about your own builders? Hopefully you just meant your own, and hopefully you realize most "builder" characters out there are nowhere near those stats.


If you've done everything, new content needs to be WORTH doing for those who've already done everything else.

No. It doesn't.


But having 1 map give out massive amounts of good loot for no effort involved is not the way to solve it.

Here's the problem: they're not going to solve it the "right" way. The right way would be a logical loot progression encompassing the segments of the game laid out by bosses:

Deeper Well - Alch. Lab. gives loot of X quality
Servants' Quarters - Throne Room gives X+1 quality
Royal Gardens - Glitterhelm gives X+2 quality
Mistymire and Moraggo gives X+3
Aquanos and Sky City gives X+4

And then fold in bonus levels as they see fit. Maybe they're harder, maybe they're easier, whatever.

Or something. Maybe what I said wouldn't work out, but as long as there WAS a consistent, gradual progression, we're all good. But you know what? Ain't gonna happen. Trendy's not going to do it, and probably because they just flat out don't want to.

So, that leaves us with two options:

1. Everyone having issues with the crappy system can go **** themselves.
2. Try and fix it, but it'll be at best quick and dirty and at worst sloppy and lazy, because doing it right will take WAAAAY too long.

So take your pick. Screw everyone who isn't you, or toss the people that need help with a broken system ONE bone to help.


This is the type of game where you get what you put in. If you don't put in the same effort I very much feel you do NOT deserve the same quality of gear.
Period.


Except not since you are at the mercy of the RNG.

Perfect response.

I played a round of Palantir with a friend of mine. Just the two of us. We knocked the map out easily, and he got an Ultimate piece of armor. I didn't.

I'm not even sure how it's debatable. If two people are even roughly equally responsible for the success in round and don't get the same caliber rewards, that entire argument falls apart.


If you worked your *** off to get 4k+ builders and the last thing trendy releases is a stepping stone map, you'd pretty pissed you just spent over 500 hours to see them only cater to casuals too.

Like I've said before, this is like getting mad at people who got the polio vaccine because you survived it the good old fashioned way.

If there were people who spent 150-300 hours getting where I am now (700 hours) without shopping for Trans. items (I haven't done any shopping), it means Trendy has improved the game, not that they've invalidated the time I spent. I'm not here to prove anything, so people getting there on their own, but doing it faster because the process is smoother doesn't threaten my ego. I have no desire for everyone else to go through the garbage I've gone through as some sort of hazing process so they can "earn their stripes" because "we had to do it too".

I don't get why sending people through 500 hours of a broken system is better than 200 through an improved one, just because others had to suffer the broken one. It just seems vindictive.

[Darkaeth]

Well said, Jonzor, well said. I just recently hit the 500 hour mark. No shopping at all. Finally got my main builder to 1600/2500/1500/1500, and my support builders between around the 1500 mark. I got my a few friends of mine playing. They're dps (which helps me a lot) and they're now 1200/1600/xxx/xxx in only 50 - 100 hours of play. I'm in no way complaining. I'm actually happy. as most people would give up around that time if they couldn't progress. And they're just pure dps. No builders for solo play.

[Shincks]

I think the balance tweaks we want will appear sometime after the launch of Black Mesa Source and Half Life 3. Hope this helps!

[Argotto]

I completely disagree, the economy is broken because trendy doesn't want to spend the money to make this game completely server side (therefore unhackable \ reasonably unhackable [honestly calling it hacking this game is a disgrace to hackers... it's more like simple hex editing....])

PvE, PvP who cares? If I spend the time to earn something why shouldn't you?

Sure we can all have nice things, but it is a complete slap in the face to have them thrown to noobs when others have had to "work" to get them

It's just like WoW, I quit because they catered to casuals. If TE caters to casuals (which they haven't yet, but I can see them heading in the direction but god I hope not) I will stop playing this game and not look back.

I like this is a community centered game, keep it that way it works wonders. I do not like catering to people who are not willing to put the same effort in as me or others. I don't care how many hours you have played, if you put the same *effort* into getting what I've got, then props bro we are on equal footing. If you were just given something because trendy decided hey loot pinata for just facerolling 1m hp ogres (looking at you pre buff and now post nerf's king's game) then yeah, I'll be very angry.

Having end of game equipment on DunDef is about having a sense of pride in your characters because it IS a lot of work getting 5 or so builders (or more!) and however many DPS sets you wish to make.

I for one am very proud of my gear in every way. I have earned it all legit and despite running across some 'hacked' equips earlier in my trading career I took my losses and moved on.

That's my opinion

Spoken like a true elitist. Guess it doesn't matter what game I migrate to, there will always be those like you who help confuse the living crap out of the devs. The vocal minority on the forums.. the ones who feel your make believe character means something in real life or to the majority of other people.

Reality check, very few do care.