PDA

View Full Version : [Theorycraft] The Return of Apprentice Tower Viability?



Friedrich Psitalon
04-24-2012, 03:23 PM
Disclaimer: It's theorycraft. So it ain't short. Deal or click back.

Please note that when I use the term "viability" I define it as:

A play style or option of equal merit and value in terms of accomplishing game goals when compared to other substantially different strategies.

I think that the general feeling that most people - certainly non-trolls - would agree with is that up until this incoming patch, in most maps, most of the time, apprentice towers are not viable in comparison with squire. (Ignoring walls and hero damage altogether.) There are specific maps where this may not be the case due to wide lanes with short approaches (Foundries and Forges being an obvious example) that favor fireballs over harpoons, but the vast majority of DD maps are longer-approach, narrower-lane, and that's absolutely a big part of the squire dominance, particularly as many/most of these maps are also downhill, offering an advantage to bowlers as well. In most if not all cases, any support from traps or auras benefited the Squire as much or more than the Apprentice. (Darkness being an arguable case, but definitely arguable, not clear-cut.)

I'd like to offer up the possibility that this paradigm may be beginning to shift - not as some kind of grand declaration, but as a discussion intended to further knowledge of the class and/or offer insight to Trendy about how players view balance.

The State of the Union

One of the biggest limitations of the Apprentice, of course, is the elemental factor in their two main damage turrets: fireball and lightning. (There's the OH GOD MY EYES ARE BLEEDING factor with fireballs, too, but we'll pretend it doesn't exist since Trendy pretends it doesn't exist.) Get a lightning immune archer or priest and he may well stand behind the main "impact point" of fireballs and not get hit with AOE, and calmly plink the crap out of your defenses, eventually wearing them down. Get a fire immune dark elf or ogre, and you've got a mob with the real potential to wreak some serious havoc before an MM or LT finally wears him down. (DSTs have other real and significant issues that prevent them from serious consideration for anything but very highly specialized work.)

I think with the recent changes we may be seeing the potential for a new combat model; a paradigm shift, if you will. Currently, most lane defense follows the Long-Approach Pierce (LAP) model. Nowhere is this more obvious than Mistymire - position your defenses so that harpoons get nice, long, elegant fields of fire, and go to town. Kandar's build reflects this truth quite well. (Using him since he's well-known, not denigrating him in any way.) All his defenses are set up with this model in mind. The only exceptions are a proximity trap on a lane that cannot reasonably be defended with the LAP model; here, he relies on the prox to clear the junk, and the piercing harpoons to punch through the ogres and DEWs. This is also very obvious and prevalent the positioning of defenses for Karathiki for the same reason - long fields of fire to maximize chances for piercing. Gas traps are there basically to defend LAP-type defenses from Djinns, and darkness/slow, when they are used, are basically there to shut down/cripple ogres and DEWs - this is still the LAP model, just the LAP model supported. The LAP model works brilliantly for squires, but since the Apprentice can't use it and currently there's no real and viable alternative to the LAP method, the Apprentice is not currently viable.

Times, it seems, are changing. I'd like to argue that Trendy - I'd assume intentionally - is now introducing a second paradigm, which I'll call the Short Range Burst (SRB) model.

Electrical auras aren't going to help LAP-Squires that much; they're a close range trash-clearing weapon that you can't use at a distance without Djinn unsummons. Weaken auras are the same. They're not intended for the LAP method. They're intended to allow, potentially, for shorter-range, AOE tactics. Rather than kill mobs with gradual damage (yes, harpoons count as gradual damage, especially late-wave nightmare) at a distance, the SRB method relies on extremely high amounts of damage delivered at closer ranges.

Two Houses, Alike in Dignity, in Fair Eternia, Where We Lay Our Scene...

The question becomes whether or not it is economical to do so. Let's assume a double-lane area, with one set of defenses working on a convergence point, rather like we might see on the north end of Throne Room or the Northeast section of Mistymire; a place with multiple monster pathing destinations - technically, either side of the Deeper Well platform would qualify as well as Castle Armory's approaches or Endless Spires' large flat platform approach.

Option A, LAP Method: 3 harpoons (can't ever really see needing more than that), two EV walls, a slow, a gas, a buff beam. 18 points, 4 points, 3 points, 3 points, 4 points = 32 points. That's a reasonable total on most maps for defending a major thoroughfare. In many cases, we're going to have a darkness trap, but not quite always. Give a 3 point variance for 2 harpoons and a darkness, or 3 harpoons and a darkness. Call it 29-35 points.

Option B, SRB method: 2 fireballs, two EV walls, a gas, buff beam, electric aura, weaken aura, lightning tower. 10 points, 4 points, 3 points, 4 points, 5 points, 5 points, 7 points = 38 points. Ouch. That's a full extra harpoon's worth. In fairness, with the buffed electric aura and Lightning tower, we might be able to rip out a fireball in some cases, cutting us down to 33, but probably not in Mixed Mode.

Is SRB going to be worth the extra points? Let's take a look.

Bringing The Pain! Raw DPS/Effectiveness

- Realistically, LAP will see its 3 harpoons, slow and gas buffed, but probably not the walls as well - not if we're running a single 4 point beam. Three buffed damage sources - all of which pierce, and that ain't nothin', as they say. The buffed ogre slow is irrelevant; no slow goes below 15%, and late-game ogres always reach barriers. You slow them for the mid-life animation time, no other reason.
- SRB will be able to buff both fireballs, the lightning tower, the electric and the weaken, as well as the gas. Four buffed damage sources and a buffed crippler. That's a point in the SRB's favor, to be sure, but is it enough? For equal points, we should slam down a fourth harpoon, but that's almost always a waste of points. It is worth noting, though, that the Lightning Tower, especially buffed, is going to start tapping targets in neighboring lanes in many cases.

Advantage: Even.

The LAP method is cheaper and simpler, but the SRB method probably is more damage once you hit the envelope. The expense makes that a cringe-worthy unless you can get two lanes out of it, though.

----------------------
I Eat Punks Like You For Breakfast! - Trash Mob Clearance

Let's look at other factors. One big advantage of the harpoon is that those long lanes of fire allow for weeding out weak creatures at extreme range. That's huge. One big limitation of the SRB model - at the moment - is that its "weak creature weed-out" abilities are anemic. Even with high-end stats, stuff gets through far too often. You can't have your defenses constantly getting chipped at by little mobs all over the map at once. Later on, that's a recipe for disaster.

- Harpoons are, of course, straight-line weapons. Nowhere are the limitations of this more apparent than wide-mouth lanes where monsters approach in quantity from both sides. (F&F is the most blatant example of this problem, as the harpoons must swing back and forth regularly.) Harpoons never cross walls. Although not many maps emphasize this problem, late-wave Endless Spires and Summit can showcase this with wyverns. Harpoons tend to offer very narrow "damage zones" that swing back and forth rapidly. Long, but narrow.

- The SRB model has two potential "wall piercers" in the Lightning Tower and the Lightning Aura. Placed properly (example: Servant's Quarters, Castle Armory, some Moraggo, Karathiki south lanes) you can get double or even triple-value off these forms of damage as the monsters cross back and forth through the lethal damage zones again and again, sometimes without even being in sight of the actual damage source. The Lightning Tower offers an extremely long - though erratic - damage zone, and the Electric Aura offers a shorter, but absolutely consistent one.

Advantage: SRB method.

SRB, it seems, may - after this patch and buffing - have the tools needed to cut out weak creatures at long range. The Lightning Tower doesn't have the Harpoon's direct fire damage, but it does have a range and flexibility the Harpoon can't match. (It's true - on a heavily populated, larger map, the lightning arc can reach some truly breathtaking distances.) I'm not sure the Lightning Tower's stun is worthy of much mention, but it should probably at least get a token nod. (Nod.) K - moving on. The Electric Aura also allows for a closer-range defensive model to potentially deal out a lot more damage and clear chaff as well. Even obvious areas that seem to favor Squire-LAP may not do so. Take the bottom lane on Ramparts - a very obvious killzone for LAP. Now put a buffed Electric Aura on the rampart up above to intercept wyverns, the bottom lane, and placed properly, damage the immediate-approach lane to the southern crystal. Suddenly, you're getting a lot for your money, and a Lightning Tower placed similarly will arc all over the place. Three threat zones with one turret - flexibility is tough for LAP to match.

While the LAP method clears trash at longer ranges, the SRB method clears it in wider areas - and that means less clearance tools needed overall. Is it enough to merit those extra points, though?
-------

The big question and problem, though, is what happens when things DO reach the barricades. Even the best harpoon map (Hi, Magus Quarters!) will eventually reach saturation where the Harpoons have to swing like mad to keep things running, and the SRB method's liability to Electric Immunes until they get into the Weaken Aura is ominous.

When The Bullet Hits the Bone - Effectiveness At the Barricade

Eventually, DEWs or Ogres will reach your barricades - or, god help you, sharkmen - and damage will occur. While we may not know the exact effectiveness of sharkmen, they are designed to shove defenses around, so it's safe to assume that they may get close enough to do so once in awhile. What happens when the walls have to earn their pay?

This has always been the limitation of the LAP method: it relies on killing things at extreme range in large numbers. If the harpoons get dragged off "the line" by a djinn redirection, things can reach the barriers quickly, especially on higher waves. If ogres clump up on the barricade and spread out along it, you're in serious trouble - harpoons will hit them as they come in on a line, but will struggle a LOT once they spread out, only striking them one at a time. LAP shines at extreme range, but weakens badly at crisis times. If your turrets get flanked, you're in real trouble - you lose half or more of your firepower as one turret covers another. (This also means one turret is almost certainly off the desired firing line, and invites even more trouble.)

Interestingly, this is where the SRB method would probably shine the most: targets flush against a barricade being shot will take full fireball damage (remember, the Weaken is rendering them vulnerable) and each shot is guaranteed to splash on others. While this won't hit the fourth or fifth ogre back, it will deal some splash to those still closing, and deal lots of splash to those lined up shoulder to shoulder. The Lightning Tower will continue to deal random damage all over hell and back, and the Electric Aura is going to grind up everything anywhere near the barrier, period. (And again, immunity is a non-issue. All non-Enrage auras are basically identical in range.) DEWs who flank a fireball will still take full damage from the electric aura, probably Lightning Tower damage, and of course the covering fireball. It's also worth noting that the swivel time on a fireball at least appears to be superior to the harpoon. (The splash magnifies this to some degree.)

There's also the other factor here: while the Weaken Aura is stripping immunity, that's not all it brings to the table. Stripping enhancements is a big damage reduction, but then you have the actual intended effect of the aura: the debuff of monster damage across the top! Anything that actually starts hitting towers, players, or walls inside of the weaken aura is doing a fraction of the damage it used to be - and that's an advantage the LAP slow aura can't begin to compete with. Slows, after all, slow movement - they don't slow damage in the least. In the late game, when ogres still rapidly reach barricades and the question becomes "what damage do they do" rather than "can they reach the wall", SRB is a huge winner. The size of a weaken aura is also likely to cripple projectile users lobbing at range - those pesky around-the-corner mages which summon and heal all the time will be absorbing voltage.

Advantage: Clear SRB. The degree of redundancy at close range here makes it a pronounced winner.

Details, Details, Details - Always Little Details

What about beam-buffed walls? - It's hard to say who benefits more from this. The LAP method is going to take hits from less critters, probably, but when things get ugly, they'll get ugly faster. The SRB method will take a lot more before things get ugly, but it'll probably show a bit more wear and tear overall. Buffed walls probably do more in the long run for SRB, but realistically, both groups benefit a lot.

What about hero damage/hero survivability? - HUGE advantage for the SRB method here. A DEW jumpig your harpoon line is a serious problem in LAP methods. A DEW jumping your turret line in SRB is still taking a lot of damage, and you're still enjoying the benefits of being in the Weaken aura - he's not going to do nearly as much as he did before. Ranged combatants and builders especially benefit here, while barbarians and countesses fighting can retreat into a much more effective safe zone than under LAP. To be fair, outside the SRB's influence zone is more dangerous than under a LAP method - you have a lot less long-range project, but what you do have up close is a lot stronger.

What about Djinn? - Toss up. Either way, gas traps are still the one right answer. Either way, the djinn's unsummon still gets blocked by the gas. The djinn won't take as much damage from fireballs, in all likelihood, as it would from harpoons, but it will be taking Electric Aura damage. It will also probably serve as a great conduction point for Lightning Towers as well. Defensively speaking, SRB probably fares a bit better - it's harder to flank an SRB setup than a LAP one.

LAP can rely on Proximity Traps for closerange trash clears! It's also cheaper! - That's true, and it functions pretty quickly, and for damage roughly equivalent to the buffed 7.30 electric aura. What the Prox trap lacks is the range - especially in front AND behind your defenses - and the ability to offer damage at multiple elevations. Prox traps offer no real advantage for wyvern control in many cases, and none at all for djinns. Electric Auras offer a much stronger trash clear, at wider ranges, and with more elevations. It's worth the two points for all that....and not to have to deal with the constant obnoxious repair issues of traps, folks.

Fireball projectile speed sucks! Absolutely true. LAP puts pain on target MUCH faster than SRB. I think the fact that Lightning towers bend through terrain, Electrics reach over terrain, and fireballs are more effective in back-and-forth combat situations compensates for that, however.

How does mix mode figure in? Mix mode actually doesn't favor LAP at all. The whole point of Mix Mode is that things come from weird directions in unpredictable numbers and strengths. LAP is based on predictability and narrow fire lanes. There's a reason people struggle with The Summit on Mix Mode until their stats are truly bananas (and many, even then) - and it's because wyverns can come from all over the place, heading to all over the place. The greater flexibility of the SRB method definitely suffers less under Mix mode than LAP.

So to return to the original question:

Are Apprentice Towers becoming viable again?

I think the answer is yes. NOT better. Nor am I arguing that LAP is on its way out - though sharkmen may offer some serious challenges, depending on how they work, since sharkmen have a lot more "pushable" targets under LAP that would care if they were pushed; Lightning Towers could care less, and you can't push Electric/Weaken auras.

I think, though, as long as people are willing to embrace a paradigm which does not involve "All damage must be piercing and as far away as possible" there may be a new kid in town.

Squire-based LAP lives on - but Apprentice-based SRB may be born.

Booke
04-24-2012, 03:32 PM
I see literally zero theorycrafting in this post. It's a nice forecast and prediction of upcoming changes, but theorycrafting applies mathematical analysis to mechanics - not speculation.

Friedrich Psitalon
04-24-2012, 03:58 PM
I see literally zero theorycrafting in this post. It's a nice forecast and prediction of upcoming changes, but theorycrafting applies mathematical analysis to mechanics - not speculation.

An interesting definition, and not one that I share, but I thank you for your input.

karril
04-24-2012, 04:06 PM
I think this is a great post, and I would venture that theorycrafting is the idea of making a theory...doesnt really need math =p

Armouredblood
04-24-2012, 04:48 PM
Liked this comparison. I think builds will mix LAP and SRB, depending on chokes. Something I thought of: for anti-wyverns, with a good enough monk and buff beams, I think ensnare + str drain + elec aura might kill them fast enough to remove AA towers completely, especially with a lightning tower going. I think tower range on monk is going to be even more important.

Friedrich Psitalon
04-24-2012, 05:07 PM
Liked this comparison. I think builds will mix LAP and SRB, depending on chokes. Something I thought of: for anti-wyverns, with a good enough monk and buff beams, I think ensnare + str drain + elec aura might kill them fast enough to remove AA towers completely, especially with a lightning tower going. I think tower range on monk is going to be even more important.

This might very well work, but consider the costs involved: 3 + 5 + 5, and if you're running a buff beam, 4 more. That's two harpoons and a free point, even ignoring the buff beam. It may very well be that there are places that three auras are more effective (ESPECIALLY buffed!) than two harpoons; for example, the grid-like section of servant's quarters would never be well-covered by two harpoons, but can be turned into a psychotic deathpit by the three auras.

You still have the issue of defending the cluster from djinns, though, and that can be tough to do in the later waves without directed, high-impact damage. If you could shield the centers from line of sight, though - say, buff them and put them on the top of the ramparts affecting the lower lane - you could protect them from djinns while still dramatically affecting the lane below.

The potential is quite fascinating.... but of course, sharkmen are the big question mark hovering over all of this. If they're made of sterner stuff than we realize, LAP could be in serious trouble indeed.

zingfharn
04-24-2012, 05:54 PM
Don't forget the aura bug which can be completely abused.
If you up an aura (elec, healing) while boosted with a hunter pet, the boost remains in place. If you up it without being boosted, you can't boost it at all.
At least, that was the case about a month ago. And I haven't seen it fixed since. Apparently it's been this way for ages.

As for sharkmen, I can't imagine they'll entirely destroy the use of any specific kind of tower. Just be a pain in the butt like spiders/djinn were until we work out how to tackle them, and eventually just be a cause of the occasional wipe. Depends entirely on speed, hp, amount of push, and quantity, all of which are totally unknown, and won't be set until a few weeks after they're out. It may be the case that if they can push only a single tower, mage barrier bait may play a big part, but who knows?

I'm more curious to learn what will happen if they push something out of a buff beam.

Back to the topic at hand, a single boosted lightning may be able to replace, say, the two proxies currently used in Kandar's build for spider control on misty. I'd also score the interrupt of lightning a little higher than you do.

But it comes down to the fact that switching out 29-35 DU for 38 is not going to work on the bigger maps where DU is already an issue. And elemental ninjas outside the str drain on mix will rip things to shreds. Maybe electric+lightning+1fireball will be enough to DPS ogres in the same way 2 harps do. Hard to say without some extensive testing post patch.

But at least we're getting a lot more options now.

Armouredblood
04-24-2012, 06:01 PM
I'm thinking mostly of the city in the cliffs map, where AA has a serious problem once wyverns gain speed. With large enough auras, you can both eliminate AA and have auras that will affect the walls. The south especially, and the west is possible. The problem would be stats really - you'd need 2k in just about everything to lock it down right, and would need constant repairing due to the volume of mobs affected.

And on the buff beam, you never really have to worry about that extra du because you'll have other defenses using it too. Really a 13 du investment that can be spread onto a lane, vs. 9 minimum (ensnare and 1 harp).

E: posted about when zingfharn did so didn't see his until after.
I never heard about that aura bug. Interesting ... must test heheh.

About sharken pushing things, if it's like the spider queen the buff beam won't go down, it'll just get pushed out and stop being buffed. I did it a few days ago to help a friend out and one of my harps got pushed out of a beam, then later destroyed. The beam stayed up.

Friedrich Psitalon
04-24-2012, 06:32 PM
I was not able to reproduce the aura bug you described using my tavern fwiw.



But at least we're getting a lot more options now.

And yes, that's the most important thing, and I guess the ultimate summation of my post. :D

Booke
04-25-2012, 12:35 AM
I think this is a great post, and I would venture that theorycrafting is the idea of making a theory...doesnt really need math =p

The idea of making a theory is exactly what this post is: a hypothesis. Einstein didn't say to people "Hey, guess what: mass equals energy. Why? Because special relativity. How 'bout that?" No, the theory is explained with mathematical equations. I guarantee you know one of them. The term itself is a portmanteau of theory and Starcraft, where it originated as a method of proving "what beats what" without resorting to "because I say it does."

It's a good post but I was anticipating juicy maths. It's a tremendous hypothesis. However, It's not theorycraft or theory. Here is a decent example of light theorycrafting (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4663257799).

ChimpsMcGhee
04-25-2012, 01:46 AM
Interesting post. I certainly am waiting for the day that I can really bring my apprentice back out of the broom closet. I can only hope that the SRB method will be as viable as it sounds post sharken. As far as the aura bug, the last time I saw it was on OMF. Build a healing aura, upgrade it with huntress guard, and watch it heal at the buffed rate no matter what pet you have equipped or where you stand inside the aura (at least it was working that way a week ago for me).

Sel'thyr
04-25-2012, 02:00 AM
The idea of making a theory is exactly what this post is: a hypothesis. Einstein didn't say to people "Hey, guess what: mass equals energy. Why? Because special relativity. How 'bout that?" No, the theory is explained with mathematical equations. I guarantee you know one of them. The term itself is a portmanteau of theory and Starcraft, where it originated as a method of proving "what beats what" without resorting to "because I say it does."

It's a good post but I was anticipating juicy maths. It's a tremendous hypothesis. However, It's not theorycraft or theory. Here is a decent example of light theorycrafting (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4663257799).

Sigh. Either you're trolling or just trying to deviate the topic. Knock it off either way.

On the topic at hand, I think Sharken will probably be worked on by trendy a few times like this latest patch til they do what trendy wants. But we will have to see. I do hope Apprentice towers come back though. I don't even have gear on mine anymore. He was a wall mage, but with EV, there's absolutely no need for him currently.

VegetAryan
04-25-2012, 03:05 AM
I think the apprentice's defenses are gearing up for a comeback, but the apprentice himself is still too fragile for late wave runs, even with max resistances. To call him a glass cannon would be insulting to glass.

Rodriguez225
04-25-2012, 08:12 AM
The problem with killboxes (or srb whatever you wanna call it) is that with the mass amount of mages clogging lanes sitting just outside towers range causing clogs making elec auras pretty poor for in-game use, the dmg increase will help, but it will still be nothing like the dmg a couple of proxies will do for short range, making most towers only use for long range attacks ;/

Friedrich Psitalon
04-25-2012, 08:43 AM
The problem with killboxes (or srb whatever you wanna call it) is that with the mass amount of mages clogging lanes sitting just outside towers range causing clogs making elec auras pretty poor for in-game use, the dmg increase will help, but it will still be nothing like the dmg a couple of proxies will do for short range, making most towers only use for long range attacks ;/

The difference is that a buffed Electrical's range is really quite prodigous, and there's no sitting outside the range of a Lightning Tower; can't be done. Auras got a very significant viability buff when EV's beams appeared.

Rodriguez225
04-25-2012, 10:55 AM
Sure, buff beams make auras alot bigger, just means the clogs are further out, LT sure does have great long range killing, but thats not what ur post is about.

Doesnt change the fact that a Proxy will still out perform any mage tower at close range for far less DU, freeing up space for towers dedicated to Ogres/Djinn.

Darkman_0
04-25-2012, 10:55 AM
I think the apprentice's defenses are gearing up for a comeback, but the apprentice himself is still too fragile for late wave runs, even with max resistances. To call him a glass cannon would be insulting to glass.

Very true. I turned my apprentice into a non-active builder. I don't even bother with resists or hp anymore.

The big thing goign in favor of LAP is that if you rely on killing djinn before they can desummon, instead of stunning them, you need pierce. Fireballs can be obstructed by ogres or whatever in front. Like you said, most people will just use gas traps, but sometimes those djinn just get into a weird position. That's usually where your hero dps comes in though I guess.

I've been changing Kandar's build myself lately, replacing one harpoon in three of the major buffed chokes with a fireballs is already pretty amazing. It's not about the damage, or the range. It's all about it having a different damage pattern. It will take out different enemies, while not greatly cutting into your ogre dps. For me, it resulted in having my walls take significantly less damage.

The same goes up with ramparts and lightning towers. I use two buff beams on that map, each of which has a lightning tower on it (among other defenses). It'll reach anything, as long as there's units on the map. I've been using the lightning tower to clear out the vast amounts of wyverns on that specific map. I'm not sure how it'll do at wave 20+, but I got faith that after the patch, it will be an amazing addition.

I'm actually pretty psyched for any aura-buff beam combinations we haven't seen before. This being anything other than ensnare-buff beam.

In some twisted kind of fate, my apprentice is actually way more geared than my other tower builders. Guess that's just because I've been getting some really good mail gear. Still, I can't wait for thursday :D


All that being said, I've already been using all of his towers. The apprentice is actually the only hero where all of his towers have some kind of niche. I'm glad they'll become slightly less situational.

ArtVandelay
04-25-2012, 11:07 AM
All that being said, I've already been using all of his towers. The apprentice is actually the only hero where all of his towers have some kind of niche. I'm glad they'll become slightly less situational.

Same with me, I use a mix of harpoons and apprentice towers and it works well. Were as many people like to put proxies down, I would rather use a lightning that can cover a large area and that I don't need to think about repairing. I would like to see some sort of change to the DST, currently I can't really find a use for it.

Friedrich Psitalon
04-25-2012, 11:29 AM
This is basically the kind of thing I'm envisioning - admittedly rough and untested, but here's an example of a traditionally LAP-dominant map that could be done under SRB quite effectively.

http://ddplanner.com/?l=3639,ramparts-srb-setup-post-730-draft-v10

Booke
04-25-2012, 11:44 AM
Sigh. Either you're trolling or just trying to deviate the topic. Knock it off either way.

Rational criticism is now trolling? Has the word evolved into a general synonym for disagreement or do you really have no idea what I'm saying and believe I'm attacking the content of the thread? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG7LjVCj50Y)

I'll keep from posting further reasonable, rational criticism from posts you enjoy.

zapados
04-25-2012, 11:45 AM
itt: people who dont know what theorycraft means

the entire point of theorycraft is that you use math/statistics to find the best possible outcome for whatever situation you're trying to theorycraft for, not say "well MAYBE this might work"

Friedrich Psitalon
04-25-2012, 12:28 PM
itt: people who dont know what theorycraft means

the entire point of theorycraft is that you use math/statistics to find the best possible outcome for whatever situation you're trying to theorycraft for, not say "well MAYBE this might work"

From Dictionary.com:
the·o·ry   [thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] : a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

From UrbanDictionary.com:
theorycraft: Theorycraft refers to any game strategy that exists only in theory and never actually put into action.

"Theorycraft" originated from the PC game Starcraft. The term was coined after countless new players would argue with each other about how certain strategies were superior to other strategies without actually putting any of these concepts into practice. This later evolved into a game in itself, albeit sarcastically. From Starcraft to Theorycraft.

There is also a secondary, less popular definition which does specifically apply to mathematics. Interestingly, the secondary definition referring to mathematics has more negative feedback than positive.
-----------------
itt: People derailing an interesting discussion with irrelevant debate. Now that the irrelevant debate is resolved, let's go back to the topic at hand: Apprentice towers, monk auras, LAP and SRB.

zapados
04-25-2012, 02:54 PM
literally anyone can go to urbandictionary and put anything for any definition they want, its the entire point of the website

Vashal
04-25-2012, 02:56 PM
literally anyone can go to urbandictionary and put anything for any definition they want, its the entire point of the website

so true, for all you know, I put that definition there, as well as the definition for 25

Booke
04-25-2012, 02:56 PM
From UrbanDictionary.com:
theorycraft: Theorycraft refers to any game strategy that exists only in theory and never actually put into action.

"Theorycraft" originated from the PC game Starcraft. The term was coined after countless new players would argue with each other about how certain strategies were superior to other strategies without actually putting any of these concepts into practice. This later evolved into a game in itself, albeit sarcastically. From Starcraft to Theorycraft.

This literally means maths. Putting into practice doesn't mean speculating, it means putting into practice. How else would theorycrafting differ from the semantic arguments that it intends to resolve?

nikodareus
04-25-2012, 03:00 PM
I think that the general feeling that most people - certainly non-trolls - would agree with is that up until this incoming patch, in most maps, most of the time, apprentice towers are not viable in comparison with squire.
I stopped reading here. Insinuating that disagreeing with your personal opinions makes someone a troll just sort of makes your opinion on the matter worthless to me even if I were to agree with it.

But I will say: I think that the general feeling that most people - certainly non-trolls - would agree with is that up until this incoming patch, in most maps, most of the time, apprentice towers are completely viable in comparison with squire.[/SARCASM based on equally made up facts]

Friedrich Psitalon
04-25-2012, 03:01 PM
I give up. I should know better than to argue with fools who are more interested in semantics than content.

Friedrich Psitalon
04-25-2012, 03:02 PM
I stopped reading here. Insinuating that disagreeing with your personal opinions makes someone a troll just sort of makes your opinion on the matter worthless to me even if I were to agree with it.

But I will say: I think that the general feeling that most people - certainly non-trolls - would agree with is that up until this incoming patch, in most maps, most of the time, apprentice towers are completely viable in comparison with squire.[/SARCASM based on equally made up facts]

Because it's not a thread until Trendy's greatest and most widely-known and recognized troll drops by. Thanks for the legitimacy.

nikodareus
04-25-2012, 03:03 PM
Because it's not a thread until Trendy's greatest and most widely-known and recognized troll drops by. Thanks for the legitimacy.
Yesyes. I'm a troll because I disagree with you. We got it. You made that obvious in your first post.

It's funny how pointing out someone elses obvious trolling makes me a troll. >.o

Booke
04-25-2012, 03:13 PM
Yesyes. I'm a troll because I disagree with you. We got it. You made that obvious in your first post.

It's funny how pointing out someone elses obvious trolling makes me a troll. >.o

Trolls and fools are we who dare to have an opinion other than fanatic praise.

zapados
04-25-2012, 03:30 PM
basically what i'm reading here is "LALALALALALA IM RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE DUMB IM SMART"

Sib
04-25-2012, 03:35 PM
Trolls and fools are we who dare to have an opinion other than fanatic praise.

You are fools and trolls because you enter a thread that was clearly created to talk about Apprentice tower viability and instead argue over the definition of Theorycraft.

You are derailing a thread for what reason? Is it somehow important that everyone on the internet agrees with your personal definition of "Theorycraft"?

"I disagree with the OP because I feel apprentice towers are already viable and I see the upcoming buffs to lightning towers as overkill; especially on a map like Ramparts."

That's an example of posting in a thread and staying on topic. Pointing out that the OP's definition of Theorycrafting does not coincide with your definition is derailing the thread, and therefore, trolling.

zapados
04-25-2012, 03:37 PM
Because it's misleading to say that there's theorycrafting going on inside the thread when there's no math or statistics to back it, which is the entire point behind theorycraft.

Sib
04-25-2012, 03:40 PM
Because it's misleading to say that there's theorycrafting going on inside the thread when there's no math or statistics to back it, which is the entire point behind theorycraft.

Who cares if the title is misleading? Do you go into McDonald's and complain that they don't serve any Irish whiskey? Address the OP's concerns or ignore him, don't derail his thread.

Rodriguez225
04-25-2012, 03:41 PM
He isn't a troll at all, just someone with strong opinuions, just like yourself.

He is right aswell, mage towers are completely viable, maybe not used as much as squire, but what is the argument here? FB can replace Harpoon on any ogre killing duty, 2 MM can replace a poon wyvern spawn (more room on buff beams with them too), especially since you be using Lightning towers on app builds too.

The only class I see having a real dominance right now is Hunters, but that is being addressed with the Str Drain change, cept, still nothing beats a proxy especially buff beamed or Guardia buffed (try a good hero boost on top of that and its crazy, same with infernos 30k+ ticks typls)

I dont think its a return of app towers at all, ppl are just getting better gear for more than just thier squire buidlers and realising how easy it is to switch in app towers at comparable gear levels.

zapados
04-25-2012, 03:42 PM
Umm, if they offered Irish Whiskey on the big sign outside, and I go into McDonalds and ask if they have it and they say "no, we don't serve that here." I probably would complain.

Rodriguez225
04-25-2012, 03:44 PM
^what if the person who put up the sign didnt work there and had no idea what it meant? :)

Booke
04-25-2012, 03:49 PM
^what if the person who put up the sign didnt work there and had no idea what it meant? :)

http://i.imgur.com/Wmauo.png

Friedrich Psitalon
04-25-2012, 04:03 PM
The fact of the matter is that I know what Theorycraft means. Interestingly, many words in English have multiple definitions and carry multiple meanings. Theorycraft is one such, and as I said the first time this came up, I have no interest in the definition others present as it does not pertain here, and I hoped that it would table the matter, and people would focus on the topic at hand.

Clearly, hoping people would take more interest in the specifics of the topic rather than variants of a word's meaning in the title was naive. I stand corrected.

zapados
04-25-2012, 04:10 PM
So you're gonna insult people and then be upset when people continue arguing with your stupid definitions that only applies to this thread because you want it to? alrighty

Friedrich Psitalon
04-25-2012, 04:13 PM
Edit: NM. I have better things to do.

zapados
04-25-2012, 04:21 PM
you forgot to actually edit your post

cute trying to act holier-than-thou though

VegetAryan
04-25-2012, 04:22 PM
So you're gonna insult people and then be upset when people continue arguing with your stupid definitions that only applies to this thread because you want it to?You are really wrong. I remember the early years of Starcraft and "theorycrafter" was used as a pejorative regardless of whether numbers were involved.

Darkman_0
04-25-2012, 04:27 PM
People have asked to stop posting about the exact meaning of the word theorycrafting multiple times now. STOP IT. Please. I didnt' come here to read about it, and after the first (maybe the second) post I'm sure everyone has made up his mind already. This is not a game you need to win. Just let it go. I will personally consider you a troll if you bring up this topic again. Nothing that hasn't been said on the subject yet is worth posting about.

@OP: Just change the topic title to a made-up word that sounds like it, such as Theocriligy. That way you'll automatically get to decide its meaning.


I stopped reading here. Insinuating that disagreeing with your personal opinions makes someone a troll just sort of makes your opinion on the matter worthless to me even if I were to agree with it.

I do hate it when people build in a clause like that, but I hardly think it was meant that way. Any topic on any forum has a substantial chance to get invaded by trolls. Often they'll be people disagreeing with you because they think it could be fun. His statement takes care of those people. It may have been poorly worded though, as it does seem to imply everyone who disagrees is a troll.

Considering the OP hasn't made any other of the more common flawed arguments, I'm quite sure he didn't mean it the exact way it was worded. And I do think most people would agree that squire towers were, in most cases, still a lot more viable. They are still the basis of the most commonly used builds.

Anyway, on to the topic at hand.

Every builder I've seen so far has been a squire. I haven't played with an apprentice builder (other than my own) in a very long time. Especially because it's just not possible to keep your apprentice builder out on those lategame survivals. It's not been that much of a problem for me personally, since I've been using dps heroes anyway, but for some people that's a gamebreaker.

I haven't seen anyone use lightning towers in a while, and I haven't seen or used a lightning aura for much longer than that. I hope they'll become viable with the buffs they'll get. Even if they don't, I'm glad to know Trendy is at least keeping an eye on them.

Oh and like I mentioned before, I think most lategame builds will combine different defense types. Both long range and short range, depending on map and the lanes in that map. There'll be different types of defense blocks, and I can't wait to try out some new combinations.

Kamahl
04-25-2012, 05:27 PM
Good read OP. I'm personally hoping for the return of fireball viability, as a fire immune ogre completely craps on a fireball-focused defense come later waves of survival, and lightning turrets are #1 at clearing out the map of trash. I'm personally leaning towards ensnare + strength drain + fireballs, but we'll see where it all takes us (this is on Karathiki, with gas traps and the only loss being one turret is downgraded to an MM at the bottom).

Smasher
04-26-2012, 12:00 AM
you forgot to actually edit your post

cute trying to act holier-than-thou though

I'm pretty sure edits within a minute or two don't put the edit tag up.

Edit: Like so.

SilverStar
04-26-2012, 10:40 AM
Here's what I have to say about this: I've been trying to run Alch Lab survival in NMHC for the past few days. Using just harpoons, I was able to get past wave 1 -once-. Swapping out to use 2 harpoons to cover the back wall (west side), then throwing in -4- FB turrets, and loading up with DOT in the form of lightning auras and fire traps, I made it to wave 25 easily, and only died due to my own slip up with the last hundred enemies on the final wave. I couldn't even hope to start out above wave 12 before. This time, I went straight to wave 20 and haven't had any issue with survivability. Splash plus DOT for trash clearing helps to melt all enemies quickly. Toss in a darkness trap (or soon, weakness aura at the cost of reducing either one FB to a MM, or lowering the coverage of my reflect beams), and the front (east) absolutely melts away without any effort, even under maximum offense.