Bounty hunter Skin

[Xi'as]

Saw this line in the upcoming patch notes

* Male Bounty Hunter now has 20% more HP but 25% less Speed than Female Series EV, and has own unique character portrait

Please reconsider this, it is a skin not a "new" character, for people useing Series as a tower builder it will be a huge disadvantage just from looking a different way..

The Unique character protrait is cool though.

- Regards Xi'as

[Rageamok]

but it's a skin and not a character just because people complained about having to re-level characters? personally I would have preferred them to be seperate characters like the squire/countess and the other 6 are, but they haven't done that for the EV and the barb :(

[Tattis]

Please reconsider this, it is a skin not a "new" character, for people useing Series as a tower builder it will be a huge disadvantage just from looking a different way..

Yeah, I honestly don't understand why the alternate gender costumes for the new characters need different stats. Sure, it saves Trendy the trouble of having to add an additional character like they did with the starting heroes and is an overall better way of handling this, but why do they feel they have to follow the pattern of male/female needing to be different?

In this case, I'm playing with my bounty hunter costume right now because it looks awesome, but what happens when they add an awesome, new female EV costume? I don't want to be discouraged from using a costume because it's going to impact my stats.

Why not just even out the stats between the gender of EV/Barbarian (10% more hp, 12.5% less speed) and let people choose which genders they want to play purely based on their desires?

[Xi'as]

Yes, i would hate to think that i spend money on the city in the cliffs dlc for the bounty hunter skin just to have it nerfed days after making it a huge disadvantage for my play style to use it.

sure if it was a new character it would be something you signed on for at the beginning, but changing the stats cause of the skin later is something completely different.

[draemn]

A lot of costumes alter stats or give players extra abilities. I've never fully liked it, but it's been there for a long time.

It does suck that either we have to deal with some side effects we don't want or not use the cool skin we do want.

It'd be nice if you unlock that "set of abilities" for each costume and can apply one at any time and SEPARATELY apply the skin... i.e. I could chose to have the abilities of the romney squire costume (basically makes the squire a countress) but wear the pants costume.

[classic22]

Would hate to see me Bounty Hunter have to be an EV just to get around :(

[Flexe]

I share the same sentiments here, I imagine that the Bounty Hunter will be a rarely used skin if they slow the movement speed, which would be a sorry sight, since it's just awesome :(

[Lazerus]

i dont knwo if i like it or i hate it.
20% more hp sounds nice, and 25% less speed isnt that much, because EV is very fast

[karril]

I loved the idea of giving the male suit the jet pack, but dont make us slow =p

[Lazerus]

more jetpack skins would be nice (or more sci fi suits).
maybe is the speed reduction and health increas not that bad we think about, maybe it is good?
EV is a very fast char, maybe the 25% wont make that big difference?

[deathsythe]

why? it's great like it's now

[dragonmaster0283]

I believe they are just following the trend of all characters where males have 20% more life and have 25% less speed while the reverse it true for female characters.

[sindro]

I believe they are just following the trend of all characters where males have 20% more life and have 25% less speed while the reverse it true for female characters.

but they are robots! no diffrent in strength like humans are. so it could have them just like they are, but for sure I will not not use the new skin :( now I'm forced to use the old EV skin ...

[Flexe]

* Male Bounty Hunter and Female Amazonian each have their own unique character portraits

This is why we love you Jer <3

[JeremyStieglitz]

Yup, the community has spoken :)

By the way, Jetpackin' Bounty Hunter is happening, quite soon!
(now all we need is to give him a flamethrower, a blaster pistol, and a carbonite freezing container ;) )

-Jer

[cubed]

Yup, the community has spoken :)

By the way, Jetpackin' Bounty Hunter is happening, quite soon!
(now all we need is to give him a flamethrower, a blaster pistol, and a carbonite freezing container ;) )

-Jer

I have been a passive observer on the forums for quite some time, but I finally made an account to say that I am honestly disappointed that this was reverted, and I guarantee there are others like me. I was looking forward to more health on EV, so I could play it more effectively in high wave survival. I am glad I didn't buy the skin, and instead waited for that change to go in.

I don't honestly think that the opinion of one page worth of users represents the community, and I think that others like me probably didn't post here simply because they assumed this issue would quickly fall off the front page.

Please reconsider this.

[Dirn]

I have been a passive observer on the forums for quite some time, but I finally made an account to say that I am honestly disappointed that this was reverted, and I guarantee there are others like me. I was looking forward to more health on EV, so I could play it more effectively in high wave survival. I am glad I didn't buy the skin, and instead waited for that change to go in.

I don't honestly think that the opinion of one page worth of users represents the community, and I think that others like me probably didn't post here simply because they assumed this issue would quickly fall off the front page.

Please reconsider this.

I have to agree with this poster. For those of us who like to utilize the Series EV as a DPS class, this was a great change. Being able to be a powerful ranged DPS class who is able to support towers is very appealing, and this change made that come to fruition. As the above poster mentioned, high level survival requires that the heroes in play have a high level of resistance and health. Each one scales off of the other, and more health makes more classes viable. Without a large health pool or a reliable way to mitigate a lot of damage, I find that the current EV is sub par to maintain solid tower compositions.

Please reconsider the change, or possibly consider adding a different version of the skin for the functionality change.

Thanks,
Dirn

[sindro]

I have been a passive observer on the forums for quite some time, but I finally made an account to say that I am honestly disappointed that this was reverted, and I guarantee there are others like me. I was looking forward to more health on EV, so I could play it more effectively in high wave survival. I am glad I didn't buy the skin, and instead waited for that change to go in.

I don't honestly think that the opinion of one page worth of users represents the community, and I think that others like me probably didn't post here simply because they assumed this issue would quickly fall off the front page.

Please reconsider this.

I'm sorry , but then they should make a new charecter and not change it after some ppl boght the DLC becouse they wanted EV to look diffrent and not be slower.

I never said yes to the DLC just to get the skin nerfed the day after :/

[cubed]

You're saying that you value aesthetics more than utility, which is fine for you, but I am the other way around. I would prefer a more useful skin than one which is simply "neat" looking.

I understand they can't easily please everyone, and now that they've proposed then reverted this change they're guaranteed to frustrate one side or the other. That said, this change was valuable because it added, as I explained, real utility to EV.

As a side note, I still don't really understand the argument. It seems to me that if you're running around on EV it means you're a DPS hero, as there seems to be little reason to keep an EV builder out. Those of you against this honestly believe that 25% speed is more valuable than 20% hp?

[Dirn]

I'm sorry , but then they should make a new charecter and not change it after some ppl boght the DLC becouse they wanted EV to look diffrent and not be slower.

I never said yes to the DLC just to get the skin nerfed the day after :/

The change is hardly a nerf. More survivability on a great ranged DPS character is invaluable in upper level survival maps.

[\/4n!114 ][c3]

im making a bounty hunter for a DPS character. the HP boost is nice for that.

i use my EV as a pure hybrid, because she is better suited to that, and i like the movement speed she has for that. i wish the bounty hunter had a damage boost over the EV though (if it doesnt already)

i would say my bounty hunter's competition is my outlander, but the outlander has a jetpack, so both have their roles to fill in my character line-up.

[Llorean]

I too have literally registered just to reply in this thread.

I was thrilled to see the new EV skin was going to have the 'male' bonus rather than the 'female' bonus. In fact, when I bought the skin, I expected it to (like the Amazon gave the 'female' bonus to the Barbarian) and was disappointed when it did not. In fact, I genuinely thought it was a bug that it didn't. After the Barbarian/Amazon are people really that shocked and surprised by this idea that a skin would change the gender effects? I don't remember people complaining so much with the Amazon, but I may have just missed it.

Trendy - some of us actually expected the male skin to have the male balance. While I'm all in favour of the idea that unlocked skins should allow you to toggle the benefit (I wouldn't mind a faster running, lower HP Highlander, for example) but even if that never becomes an option, more utility is better than sacrificing the utility just so people can play whatever skin they want. Honestly, I'd like to play a barbarian that looks like a squire, but I don't have that option either. Everyone has somehow they'd 'prefer' to look, and needs to make the choice between appearance and function. Let's keep the additional flexibility of Bounty Hunter having more HP and less speed, please.

In fact, I'm really, really, really hoping that some future skins get more interesting effects than just gender bonuses. The jetpack is nice, and I imagine with some thought, there could be some really interesting additional benefits. Or even just adding bonuses to building and other things into the mix.

(PS - this is unrelated entirely, but since this might be my only post here, ever, here's an idea I had that I feel would add something to the game. Give classes a passive bonus. Like, "if a squire is active, all towers gain 5% damage resistance, if an apprentice, 5% extra damage." Basically, like the guardian boost, but to all towers, stacking with everything *except* other members of the class, so that two squires isn't any better than one squire. This would, I think, be pretty interesting.)

[Dirn]

The easiest solution may be just to make a female and male bounty hunter with their respective passive bonuses.

[Llorean]

The easiest solution may be just to make a female and male bounty hunter with their respective passive bonuses.

I'll tell you what, when I first saw the skin I thought "Samus Aran" but then I saw it's male and thought "Armstrong Houston, then." I didn't think it was a male skin until I read the actual descriptions, but then I expected that since they explicitly said it was male, it would have male-style stats.

[Flexe]

I think the issue here is that folk (including myself) have bought this skin to change the appearance of the character, not base functionality.

I enjoy the speed of the EV for setting up defenses agasint a nightmare timer, and whilst I can see how the HP to some people make for better utility, there is also the flip side where the speed is for better ultility to other people, and since the Bounty Hunter is technically just a "skin", it therefore shouldn't be affecting the base functionality of the class.

[Llorean]

The fact is, though, that the Amazon was also just a skin, and changed the functionality when it changed the gender. Being the only gender swap skin previously, some of us bought the skin for the functionality change that we thought was being offered when they explicitly stated it was a "male" skin (since there aren't any visible gender signs, the only reason to even state it's male is because it has male stats). Being a robot, as well as not having visible gender signs, there's no reason at all to state to us it was a male other than the fact that all male characters and skins have HP bonuses and all female skins and characters have speed bonuses.

I'd argue that any of you expecting it to be purely cosmetic should've brought this issue to attention with the previous gender swap skin, as that's when the issue first happened. Either the Amazon skin needs to be purely cosmetic, or this skin needs to either drop the 'male' descriptor or get the male stats, otherwise it's pretty inconsistent with existing DLC.

Anyone who bought this skin not expecting it to change the stats wasn't paying attention with the Barbarian. Anyone who bought this skin expecting it to change the stats is now getting the shaft because the people who didn't pay attention previously are currently the most vocal.

The only real fix to this is for Trendy to decide, and state openly, whether Male/Female skinning will mean the characters get Male/Female bonuses, then apply that logic to existing and future skins, rather than having one go one way, and another go the other way.

I'd prefer the added flexibility, but it's the inconsistency that's really the problem since people can end up buying DLC not knowing what to expect (as I apparently did in this case, if the character is not going to get the Male stats applied).

Again, why even state this androgynous machine is "male" if it's not going to have male stats?

The HP, by the way, is *objectively* better Utility, not just subjectively, because the new skin doesn't remove the option of using the old skin. So for speed, that's always available. Meanwhile, not having the HP does not leave us a way to have more HP on an EV class, as there's no skin to switch to for that. So it literally is a case of utility vs appearance.

[cubed]

I think the issue here is that folk (including myself) have bought this skin to change the appearance of the character, not base functionality.

I enjoy the speed of the EV for setting up defenses agasint a nightmare timer, and whilst I can see how the HP to some people make for better utility, there is also the flip side where the speed is for better ultility to other people, and since the Bounty Hunter is technically just a "skin", it therefore shouldn't be affecting the base functionality of the class.

So what, you reiterated like half my post, but ignored the question I posed? We gain utility with the skin, and you lose nothing, since you can simply use the default skin for your desired speed.

Are you keeping EV out after the build phase? If not, you're hardly looking at the character - use the faster skin to suit your building needs, you don't look at the builder once you put it away (especially in the case of builder EV, since having it out is not particularly useful).

[Edstonx]

You're saying that you value aesthetics more than utility, which is fine for you, but I am the other way around. I would prefer a more useful skin than one which is simply "neat" looking.

I understand they can't easily please everyone, and now that they've proposed then reverted this change they're guaranteed to frustrate one side or the other. That said, this change was valuable because it added, as I explained, real utility to EV.

As a side note, I still don't really understand the argument. It seems to me that if you're running around on EV it means you're a DPS hero, as there seems to be little reason to keep an EV builder out. Those of you against this honestly believe that 25% speed is more valuable than 20% hp?

I think the best option with both the Barbarian and EV would have been to release two new characters that had these varied stats like they did with the original gender swaps.

The issue most people had with this change is that stats were changing with a skin, skins should be mostly aesthetic. I would really like to have a true gender option as appose to just skins myself. Though I can also see it being a pain to level that many different characters, so as you said you really can't please everyone.

Even further on the same subject, if people don't regularly go to the forms they don't know things like this about the skins. Jetback, ninja monk costume has a better attack animation, Mitt Romney costume seems to be faster on the OG squire with the countess attack and no health loss. Information about most of this only seems to exist on the forums. Some of that info could be wrong, its just what I've read and tested on my own. Doesn't mean is 100% I could have misjudged it.

[nikodareus]

I think the issue here is that folk (including myself) have bought this skin to change the appearance of the character, not base functionality.

I enjoy the speed of the EV for setting up defenses agasint a nightmare timer, and whilst I can see how the HP to some people make for better utility, there is also the flip side where the speed is for better ultility to other people, and since the Bounty Hunter is technically just a "skin", it therefore shouldn't be affecting the base functionality of the class.
Much like the other's chiming in now, I'd like to know where this mindset was for the amazon skin? Color me crazy, but it just seems like there should be some consistency here. I don't care if the bounty hunter is purely cosmetic, if the amazon were going to be too. Personally I'd rather see them have their seperate stats for the gender like every other gender-swap in the game, costume or not. But more importan than that, be CONSISTENT with content.

That said, perhaps trendy just needs to either consider a 'physical capability' option to choose whether they are buff (high health) or athletic (high speed). Or adjust stat ramps accordingly for the genders so that they can more easily make up for their weak points than their counter-genders can and it wont be an issue for end-game players. (I.e. female catches male on HP at 1000 hero health and male catches female on speed at 100 hero speed)

[Xi'as]

Okey as the Starter of this topic i cannot express my gratitude to the developers that i was heard like this, it is truely amazing to see.

Thank You Trendy

[nikodareus]

Okey as the Starter of this topic i cannot express my gratitude to the developers that i was heard like this, it is truely amazing to see.

Thank You SOOO Much Trendy.
Hopefully they hear that over half the people in your topic have expressed that they don't want your change at all and will go ahead and turn it back around. If not, someone will start a poll and hopefully it can get changed that way.

It's time to do a reversal on this reversal.. Many people -created- accounts just to express they didnt want this to go through.. Listen to the majority, not just those who were immediately vocal about it.

[zingfharn]

Pretty sure the amazon skin (vs female counterpart) was because people were complaining about having to level 2 different characters. Downside is that you lose skill diversity, I guess.

[Dirn]

There needs to be some form of consistency. The Series EV is arguably one of the best characters to have around for high end survival maps. The health boost bonus would have been an incredible change to allow flexibility in choosing what active character to have. Either way, there needs to be consistency, and hopefully Trendy is watching! :D

[SnakeChips]

I love how people complain when either way, this was going to happen. They settle that Male's have higher HP and females run faster, just the way things are. And whether it was a separate character or not(because people complained about having to level another for a whole new char) they decide to make it a costume. Because in the end it was supposed to be a whole new character anyways not just a costume, so either way this health/speed thing was going to happen. Don't like it? Life's rough get a helmet. It's just the way the male and female thing has worked in this game. So get used to it guys.

On the side note of them having there own self portraits now, TYVM JER!!! YOUR AWESOME!

[nikodareus]

I love how people complain when either way, this was going to happen. They settle that Male's have higher HP and females run faster, just the way things are. And whether it was a separate character or not(because people complained about having to level another for a whole new char) they decide to make it a costume. Because in the end it was supposed to be a whole new character anyways not just a costume, so either way this health/speed thing was going to happen. Don't like it? Life's rough get a helmet. It's just the way the male and female thing has worked in this game. So get used to it guys.
You realize that Jeremy decided NOT to do the stat change for bounty hunters in this very thread, right? That's why it's not in the patch notes anymore and most people are now complaining that they changed their minds on doing it the way they should.

[SnakeChips]

You realize that Jeremy decided NOT to do the stat change for bounty hunters in this very thread, right? That's why it's not in the patch notes anymore and most people are now complaining that they changed their minds on doing it the way they should.

Yes I know, which brings the point, people complain to complain, and it just annoys the crap out of me. I know they want to appeal to their customers, but some things you just don't change. Only excuse I can see them using is saying, they are robots, not human(male or female), so no change is needed.

[Dirn]

Yes I know, which brings the point, people complain to complain, and it just annoys the crap out of me. I know they want to appeal to their customers, but some things you just don't change. Only excuse I can see them using is saying, they are robots, not human(male or female), so no change is needed.

Complaining to complain is much different than complaining with a solid foundation of an argument. There is an extreme functional advantage to having more health at a cost of speed. This is not complaining. It is stating a valid argument for the developers to consider.

[dragonmaster0283]

So now theres no consistancy. The female barb skin did the exact opposite and theres no complaints there. (You lost the HP and gained the speed). I was looking forward to the change as a beefer EV beats out a speedy one hands down.

[SnakeChips]

Complaining to complain is much different than complaining with a solid foundation of an argument. There is an extreme functional advantage to having more health at a cost of speed. This is not complaining. It is stating a valid argument for the developers to consider.

I understand that, but the COMPLAINING is because you guys want the MALE version to have FEMALE stats because of costumes when this character was supposed to originally be separate from EV to begin with. So if you wanna be faster and less HP, use EV, if you want more HP and less speed, use bounty hunter. So people are COMPLAINING about bounty hunter stats. Not whether it's logical or not. Basically passing this people are going to want the same for all the other female/male characters to have the same stats now.


So now theres no consistancy. The female barb skin did the exact opposite and theres no complaints there. (You lost the HP and gained the speed). I was looking forward to the change as a beefer EV beats out a speedy one hands down.

EXACTLY! Thank you. And I was looking for the change as well.

[sindro]

Hopefully they hear that over half the people in your topic have expressed that they don't want your change at all and will go ahead and turn it back around. If not, someone will start a poll and hopefully it can get changed that way.

It's time to do a reversal on this reversal.. Many people -created- accounts just to express they didnt want this to go through.. Listen to the majority, not just those who were immediately vocal about it.

you have to relize something, the change that you want does not exist and never did.

they where gonna change it but didn´t, maybe becouse they relized that it was not a smart move to make a "SKIN" change stats.

[Dirn]

you have to relize something, the change that you want does not exist and never did.

they where gonna change it but didn´t, maybe becouse they relized that it was not a smart move to make a "SKIN" change stats.

Please explain the amazon and barbarian then.

[Dingle]

I'm in support of the male skin having male-ified stats. Fact is, a male character's benefits pretty much outweigh a female's for DPS purposes, and DPS is the main reason I'd keep an EV out in the combat phase - and if I have a seperate EV for building, the costume doesn't matter. It's only gonna be on my screen for 5 minutes or so while I get my walls and buff beams out.

If people are gonna keep complaining so much, then maybe Trendy should just hurry to release a good-looking female skin so they can all have that. Leave the male skin with male benefits, more skins can come later to appease other people.

And if people really bought the DLC for the bounty hunter skin, well... maybe attach a new skin to that DLC too to pacify them?

[Llorean]

I'd take a second costume for no additional cost with male stats. :) I was hoping it'd be more Megaman than Samus anyway.

But seriously though, if it's going to have a different portrait, it better be a different gender. Unless you're just planning to give us new portraits for all the existing costumes over time. No sense having a new portrait unless it's at least partially a new class (like the Amazon).

[nikodareus]

you have to relize something, the change that you want does not exist and never did.

they where gonna change it but didn´t, maybe becouse they relized that it was not a smart move to make a "SKIN" change stats.
Um.. Okay...? Where did I not realize that...? All I did was point out that it's inconsistent. And also pointed out to someone else that they had -added the change to the patch notes- (NOT the game) just to do a full 180 and pull it from the patch notes and spark up even MORE people complaining about that than they originally had.

Most of the support shown in this thread is for having male stats on the bounty hunter and Trendy needs to consider that, especially when they are going to say things like "The public has spoken!" as their reason for stripping the patch note in the first place.


Please explain the amazon and barbarian then.
This. And not to mention the other half a dozen or more "SKIN"s that change stats/functionality.

[Blastfamous]

The male and female counter parts should have remained as different classes like the original set. They each have their pros and cons, mainly speed and hp. Let's not forget that the special abilities also make the class worth buying because that feature turns the tables on how you configure your character.

People complained about having to level up another character and that's why it's now done with costumes/skins. But big deal we did that plenty of times in the past (most veterans here have 12+ heroes on 74 and up) and it's not like it takes that long. The leveling up feature of the game is part of it so deal with it.

If leveling up is such a pain in the butt, make it so u can buy a ton of xp from tavern at high mana costs like 50 million or so to go up 5 million in xp. That should keep all the noobs who can't wait happy, all they have to do is sell their junk to the next sucker or man up and do survival (a mana farming game mode, go figure).

[classic22]

Let's keep this civil shall we? We don't need to insult each other to get a point across. These are all opinions. No one is wrong, we just have different views.

Personally I would like to see the speed/health modifiers be a toggle. It would alleviate much of the debate. For those who want beefy or speedy characters you can choose. Perhaps make accessories able to change these hidden stats.

Again, remain civil, please.

[Llorean]

I don't think there's anyone who'd actually disagree with removing the connection between skin and speed/health. The problem is that this isn't currently a feature, and is probably unlikely to make it in the next patch.

Meanwhile, it's pretty apparent that making the male skin tanky could and would make it in the next patch, and many of us would like to see that for now, at least until such a feature is ready.

[Shaedow]

I was thrilled to see the new EV skin was going to have the 'male' bonus rather than the 'female' bonus. In fact, when I bought the skin, I expected it to (like the Amazon gave the 'female' bonus to the Barbarian) and was disappointed when it did not. In fact, I genuinely thought it was a bug that it didn't. After the Barbarian/Amazon are people really that shocked and surprised by this idea that a skin would change the gender effects? I don't remember people complaining so much with the Amazon, but I may have just missed it.

Trendy - some of us actually expected the male skin to have the male balance. While I'm all in favour of the idea that unlocked skins should allow you to toggle the benefit (I wouldn't mind a faster running, lower HP Highlander, for example) but even if that never becomes an option, more utility is better than sacrificing the utility just so people can play whatever skin they want. Honestly, I'd like to play a barbarian that looks like a squire, but I don't have that option either. Everyone has somehow they'd 'prefer' to look, and needs to make the choice between appearance and function. Let's keep the additional flexibility of Bounty Hunter having more HP and less speed, please.

Completely agree with the above, shame :(

[Chibi]

I don't mind skins that change stats, it gives you the option to go either way with a character for any given map. For people who think that they should be an entirely separate character (amazon/bounty hunter) it seems like you could solve your problem by leveling a second EV to use the skin with whatever stats were more or less desirable, which is exactly what you'd have to do anyway with a separate character.

[imported_some_guy]

How about just 2 bounty hunter skins? One, purely cosmetic which you unlock for beating the level on medium or higher, and the other which changes stats you have to beat the level on hard or higher to unlock? (or something along those lines)

[nikodareus]

* 25% Bounty Hunter HP boost and 25% less Movement Speed [community-polled]
From a 180 to a 360. Woot! Go Boba Tank!

[WillKill103]

Yup, the community has spoken :)

By the way, Jetpackin' Bounty Hunter is happening, quite soon!
(now all we need is to give him a flamethrower, a blaster pistol, and a carbonite freezing container ;) )

-Jer
We need more customizability with colors! I want to make Bobba already!

[classic22]

From a 180 to a 360. Woot! Go Boba Tank!

The greasy wheel gets the most oil, it appears.

[Vesper]

The greasy wheel gets the most oil, it appears.

Agreed. :-(

[Tattis]

The greasy wheel gets the most oil, it appears.

Yeah, I really didn't care about the change one way or the other, but it disappoints me that Trendy operates like this. I mean, I love that Trendy listens to the community, but they need be a little less reactive to it or maybe a little slower at it.

[Dingle]

It would be nice if their responses to a public outburst like this were either of the following:

- Tell us they've decided on doing it this way for some reason
- Create an official poll and let it run for a while before making a decision to change things

[Llorean]

A poll of the forums really isn't a good way to do it.

Think about the answers the patch forums specifically would give to these question:
"Have you visited the forums?" (100% yes, unless someone lied).
"Have you read the patch notes?" (Pretty high 'yes' response rate).
"Are you aware that the new EV skin didn't have different stats, but they were considering changing them?" (Can't predict the 'yes' response rate on this one, but that's not too important to the point).

Now consider how the global DD community as a whole would answer those three questions. Odds are quite good the answer rate would be dramatically different. Most of the community wouldn't even be aware the change was being considered, *especially* if they were happy with the way things were, and so hadn't come here to complain and seen that a change was under consideration.

A poll on the forums just can't really represent "community will" in a meaningful way. All it can represent is the will of a very specific subset. This may be considered good enough, because these are some of the most dedicated players, and some of the most likely to recruit new players via word of mouth, but they don't represent the "community." Many of the wider community don't even know the forum exists, so you can't say "well, they aren't interested enough in the state of the game" because nobody has made an attempt to let them know they CAN provide feedback regarding the direction things go.


What would be nice is if as soon as people started objecting to a change in the patch notes, instead of just waiting to see how many objections there were, Trendy opened a dialogue by stating why a change was going in, and attempting to understand both why people object to it, and why people favour it. There might be ideas in the community why it'd be a bad idea they hadn't thought of. For example, when they announced in the patch notes that they were going to allow you to repair any tower that was at all damaged, I knew it'd cause the exact problem it did end up causing. I didn't bother saying anything because I also knew they were clever enough to notice it needed fixing once it went live and it didn't seem likely I'd get notice anyway. But other community members can have opinions that are useful like that too.

The whole point of upcoming patch notes seems to be to give us an opportunity to comment on them. If that's the case, accompanying changes with a rationale so that we can understand what Trendy's trying to accomplish us can help us see the difference between a single nerf (the recent squire tower attack weakening) or a general rebalancing (all the changes that followed up that made it a much smaller nerf, while helping other classes be more useful). This way we're better able to discuss whether we think it'll make the whole experience better or worse, rather than just looking at a small part and being upset or not if it affects us.

I don't expect design docs telling us the overall direction or anything, but a small note per line like "Squire tower damage reduced by fixing a bug that was granting an extra amount of damage, in anticipation of a further balance round to make gameplay generally more viable in nightmare" would go a long way to avoiding immediate knee jerk reactions to any one change.

[nikodareus]

Yeah, I really didn't care about the change one way or the other, but it disappoints me that Trendy operates like this. I mean, I love that Trendy listens to the community, but they need be a little less reactive to it or maybe a little slower at it.

I disagree fully. They need to be exactly this reactive to it. And at least they gave the poll some time this time instead of jumping in after a few posts and making a hasty decision.

[Dingle]

A poll on the forums would represent the will of the people who care enough to visit the forums and be informed. The game offers a link to the patch notes every time a player logs into ranked play; one can assume that anybody that cares enough will read them. Anybody that doesn't like them may be willing to post a thread or in a thread about the issue.

You'll quickly find on most issues it's only a vocal minority that complain in the first place, but there's a lot of players who don't feel the need to post because they agree wih the changes. A poll encourages that second group to voice their opinion where they usually do not. A poll also gives people that dislike the changes enough to visit the forums a place to voice their opinion in a more orderly fashion than the 5 or so threads we had going at one point about the squire nerf a couple weeks back. In most cases, people who are unwilling to do that much are unlikely to have enough drive on the issue to be completely turned away from the game if it doesn't turn out in their favour - if the new changes do bother them, they'll likely also come to the forums, discover that they had the chance to have input on the matter, and may choose to pay more attention in the future.

As long as the polls are run properly, it'll work fine. Heck, Trendy can encourage people to join in by placing links to polls in the Ranked splash screen that shows up when you log in. If they do that, the poll is esentially public to anybody playing the game - you can assume that anybody not voting doesn't feel too bothered either way.

[nikodareus]

you can assume that anybody not voting doesn't feel too bothered either way.
My sentiments exactly.

[Llorean]

Trendy can encourage people to join in by placing links to polls in the Ranked splash screen that shows up when you log in. If they do that, the poll is esentially public to anybody playing the game - you can assume that anybody not voting doesn't feel too bothered either way.

A link to the poll on the ranked page (or even just a link to the upcoming patch notes on login) would be exactly the right sort of way to do this, yes.

Waiting for the change to roll out, and then reverting it when the first group of people complains, then reverting the reversion when the other side complains is, on the other hand, not the way to do it. Which is what you get when you start talking about having the polls be semi-private (here, and unannounced) and waiting for people to complain about changes. The less volatile the state of the game is, the better.

Saying "anybody not voting doesn't feel too bothered" isn't based on any real information. Again, what about the people who play offline and/or don't know about the forums? They still get affected by the patch, but they may not even know there's a channel in which they can voice complaints.

Do you really think it's better to wait for people to complain if they "feel too bothered", than to reach out to the community in advance?

[nikodareus]

Personally I just want to extend my personal thanks to Trendy for listening at all. The needs of the many and all that jazz.

Thank you for paying attention to the vocal majority! It beats what anyone else would have done for us.

[Tattis]

I disagree fully. They need to be exactly this reactive to it. And at least they gave the poll some time this time instead of jumping in after a few posts and making a hasty decision.

I don't really understand why you'd disagree since it's the over-reactiveness that caused the issue in the first place. Had a little more time been given to the original thread, or if someone from Trendy posted, and said, "We're considering what's being said. What do the rest of you think?", this whole thing likely could've been avoided.

And realistically, I don't think the poll was the best way of doing it either. I mean, we can all sit here and pretend it was decided by a "vocal majority", but when you have thousands of players playing this game on a daily basis, less than 100 votes is nowhere near close enough to being reflective enough to claim that.

Like I said, I'm glad Trendy listens to the community. In fact, it's one of the things that impresses me about them the most. I just think they need to be a little more careful when jumping the gun when it comes to satisfying the community. Some decisions don't need to be made by committee.

[Llorean]

I don't really understand why you'd disagree since it's the over-reactiveness that caused the issue in the first place. Had a little more time been given to the original thread, or if someone from Trendy posted, and said, "We're considering what's being said. What do the rest of you think?", this whole thing likely could've been avoided.

And realistically, I don't think the poll was the best way of doing it either. I mean, we can all sit here and pretend it was decided by a "vocal majority", but when you have thousands of players playing this game on a daily basis, less than 100 votes is nowhere near close enough to being reflective enough to claim that.

Like I said, I'm glad Trendy listens to the community. In fact, it's one of the things that impresses me about them the most. I just think they need to be a little more careful when jumping the gun when it comes to satisfying the community. Some decisions don't need to be made by committee.

Agree 100%. That's why I'd like to hear their thought process on a lot of changes. The majority certainly isn't always right (though I think that the male skin should've had male effects in the first place, so I'm happy with the results, if not the process) but if Trendy, upon seeing dissent, had a process for opening up communication it'd be nice. Rather than asking for a vote, ask for opinions about why it should be one way or another, then after those opinions have been offered by the community, Trendy unilaterally deciding which of those opinions they agree with. It's their game, and it needs to go in the direction they want to take it, but occasionally we might see a better path to the same destination.

[nikodareus]

I don't really understand why you'd disagree since it's the over-reactiveness that caused the issue in the first place. Had a little more time been given to the original thread, or if someone from Trendy posted, and said, "We're considering what's being said. What do the rest of you think?", this whole thing likely could've been avoided.
Agreed on everything but you not understanding how I can disagree. Really..? There is nothing more naive than saying "I'm not sure why you dont agree with me on our matters of personal opinion."


And realistically, I don't think the poll was the best way of doing it either. I mean, we can all sit here and pretend it was decided by a "vocal majority", but when you have thousands of players playing this game on a daily basis, less than 100 votes is nowhere near close enough to being reflective enough to claim that.
The vocal majority is just that. The majority of players that were vocal about it. Just like the vocal minority is the minority of players that were vocal about it. It has nothing to do with the rest of the players in the game. If you don't speak up, you don't get a voice just like the rest of the world.

Personally I would -much rather- they listen to the vocal majority than listen to noone at all.

I'm sure they are also looking at this from an objective viewpoint where if they -didnt- listen to the vocal majority for their decision process, they would be getting screamed at and flamed by that same group of people for not caring.

[nikodareus]

Agree 100%. That's why I'd like to hear their thought process on a lot of changes. The majority certainly isn't always right (though I think that the male skin should've had male effects in the first place, so I'm happy with the results, if not the process) but if Trendy, upon seeing dissent, had a process for opening up communication it'd be nice. Rather than asking for a vote, ask for opinions about why it should be one way or another, then after those opinions have been offered by the community, Trendy unilaterally deciding which of those opinions they agree with. It's their game, and it needs to go in the direction they want to take it, but occasionally we might see a better path to the same destination.
It's not that I disagree, but more that I don't assume for one second that Trendy didn't already examine the opinions that have been offered in the last couple of days in the relevant threads. Jeremy has made it quote obvious that he is sifting through these threads, giving them his personal time and attention. Even having to slog through 5/11 pages of hate-mongering.

More went into the decision process than 'The poll won!' I can pretty much guarantee you. At least they considered the weight of the poll instead of ignoring it completely.

[Llorean]

Just as a note, "vocal majority" and "vocal minority" do not traditionally mean "the majority and minority of people being vocal." Vocal minority traditionally means "the minority acting loudly enough to appear as if they were a majority." It means "a minority of the whole being vocal" rather than "a minority of the vocal sub-group of the whole." It's traditionally paired with the "silent majority" rather than any "vocal majority." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority

[nikodareus]

Err.. Well, no, they literally mean, majority or minority of those being vocal. Traditionally as well. But, okay. You believe what you want about it. I'll do the same. I'd be happy to have a back and forth with anyone else about it, but I'm going to take the higher road in this case and just avoid more conflict with ye. Please do the same.. >.o

Their meaning is commonly misinterpretted, don't get me wrong. I just tend to be entirely too literal most of the time. Much like I abhor trendy's constant misuse of the word decimate in-game. Just because it's more commonly used wrong than right doesnt mean it's definition has changed any.

[Llorean]

No, really, click the link. I'm not just making things up. "Vocal minority" is a term traditionally used to mean a specific thing.

As a note, a literal reading of "vocal minority" would actually be "the minority, being vocal" since vocal is the adjective and minority is the noun. If you said "the minority of the vocal" on the other hand, a literal reading of it would mean "the minority of those who have spoken up." So not even the "literal" thing really holds here according to standard English parts of speech.

[nikodareus]

No, really, click the link. I'm not just making things up. "Vocal minority" is a term traditionally used to mean a specific thing.
Never said you were. And I know it's used to mean a specific thing. Moving on.

[classic22]

And with that, we shall end this discussion. :)

/closed