djinn are still too plentiful

[\/4n!114 ][c3]

again, im trying to look at this from an open minded point of view, thinking, "yeah, this is something reasonably acceptable to deal with at an intended gear level."

now, continuing with that, lets look at some details.

exhibit a (http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198000735980/screenshot/542922712006990270?tab=public) - wave 13, 4 people, 73 djinn

exhibit b (http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198000735980/screenshot/542922712006988133?tab=public) - wave 14, 4 people, 86 djinn

wave 12 had 24. on insane. with 4 people. after a 50% reduction that was after a 40% reduction. which means that prior to this, there was 67 djinn that would be spawning on wave 12 insane with 4 people.

on ramparts wave 18 nightmare with 4 people there are barely half of the wave 14 number as moraggo insane.

fun fact: they are running around with 1.3 million hitpoints also.

moraggo is listed as level 70 suggested hero level. players cannot use mythical gear at that point, nor can they reasonably have access to godly gear with more than probably 40 levels and if they are lucky, 30 ish to their stats. it is a complete impossibility for them to be able to complete this, because they will not have weapons or pets (outside of hacking) that would allow them to be able to deal with djinn. especially when they spawn up to 10 at a time with 4 players playing.

djinn have dwarfed ogres as the "target now" mob, because they fly, because they desummon towers, because they bolt players with knockback damage that is enough to send them flying half way across maps, because they have the ability to sneak behind the damage arc of towers, because they have so many hitpoints, and because they spawn at so many different locations on moraggo.

they are far more manageable in other maps, because they have to follow the spawn locations of other mobs, so they are always in the damage line of towers, so they can be baited into a proper location that towers can take away their damage like they should. but in moraggo, because of the narrow alleys and tight building conditions in most places on the map, this is much more difficult than it is elsewhere.

and again, on insane, with a level 70 suggested level, there is no way that a player, following what is considered a "natural" progression could be expected to deal with this.

this mob is being used far more liberally than it needs to be. at worst, djinn counts in a wave should be pretty comparable to ogre counts in a wave, maybe slightly more (in the 10-15% range), not anywhere near the counts they are now. at best, they should be 10-15% less than ogre counts. i can just imagine what wave 24 would be like in moraggo.

[Warmonger]

The problem is that with 73 Djinns you also get 5600 other enemies, which will do nothing but make you bored for the next 20+ minutes. Djinn percentage is actually acceptable. I believe with 2000 mobs and 25 Djinns this wave could be much more bearable.

[\/4n!114 ][c3]

it was ok for the first half of the wave, its just at the end, because there are so many places they could spawn, there just got to be too many on the map to deal with at one time. the cap of 10 for 4 players was not enforced. there were 10 in the area i was guarding alone, and there were others in other places on the map. but as soon as i killed one, another one immediately spawned, and because i had 4 others in one spot to deal with (i was covering the 2 southern crystals), they just had all the time in the world to go around nuking towers.

im all for keeping busy during survival, but man, it seems the only way to do it now is to get everyone on a huntress and hold the shift key watching for where the djinn will spawn.

there are just too many possible spawn locations, too many in too cramped of quarters, and too many ways they can sneak in behind a tower and catch you off guard, and when they mass spawn, its just too much to deal with.

it really frustrates me, because i love the map, it is extremely fun to play, but you cant turn a corner there without spotting 6 djinn spawns locations. and i am convinced the southeast crystal is there just to give djinns a griefing advantage.

[D1CER]

I agree, everything about Djinns is still too much. There are too many of them at once. They are too hard to kill. They cause too much hero damage. They desummon towers too quickly and it takes too long to disrupt them.

The game is out of balance. Every tower needs to be an anti-air harpoon to deal with them. No more bowling balls, auras, traps and as few walls as you can get away with. There is not enough DU in most maps to allow for any defense that can't hit them.

On a positive note, I love the Maraggo map. But, I do wish that the flying carpets where located more strategically. The only time I use them is during the build phase to collect mana. THe carpet by the water should be near the forge, so that you can use it to quickly get to the upper two lanes. The way it is now, it is faster to walk than go out of your way to jump on a carpet.

[FruitLord]

Djinns were added so the people with already leet gear couldn't afk through 80% of each wave in late game survival. The rest of us are just out of luck.

[zingfharn]

I can't answer the problem with too many djinn (maybe they only fixed it on nightmare?) but I can tell you I haven't found a single mage build that will hold beyond wave 14.

[BatLB]

The Problem in survival isnt the amount of Ogres and Djinns, Wyverns or Spiders. To be honest, mass Wyvern/Spiders at the last 300 Monsters is absolutely common. The ANNOYING part of the Survival is the 30 Minute Goblins/Orcs/Goblin Archer/Necrospawn while your defends not even get hit. You idle behind the Barricades for around 20-30 Minutes and in the End you get overwhelmed by MASS WYVERN and SPIDERS, spawning in the last seconds.

Thats the biggest problem with survival I think ...

[zingfharn]

I'd argue that's kinda the point of survival. The hard bits are what makes it interesting. As I've said elsewhere, remove the afk in the middle, and just give us the hard bits.

[Vantoura]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1roVoWS3b8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[senz54]

Djinn numbers are fine. Sure, there's a few of them and sure they'll destroy a few of your defenses every now and then, but if they weren't a problem then they might as well have just not added them to the game at all. DD doesn't need more filler mobs like goblins and orcs.

2 million HP is nothing. My countess has 2000ish tower damage, that's 200k per hit with an app guardian, add a Huntress guardian and 2mil is gone in literally a second. Unless damage increases exponentially, 1000 tower damage with same stats elsewhere (1kish) would make that 2 seconds. A few gas traps give your harpoons more than enough time to take them out even without guardians - If you have 4 people in the game that's at least 2 lanes covered with double guardian at any given time, assuming you're clever enough to actually use guardians and don't waste your pet slot on some dps pet or fairy or something. If a djinn is outside the tower's range then you need to deal with them yourselves, it's not that hard. You can also counter that to a degree by not upgrading the outermost defenses as much as the ones that are less vulnerable.

As if that wasn't enough, most of the djinn come at the end of the wave, which means that unless you let them obliterate everything before the last ogre is dead you can easily rebuild stuff during the build phase.

Spiders changed the game far more than djinn did, and I love spiders. The game would be boring without them, actually it was starting to get boring even with them. Djinn give us a little more action during the combat phase, we can't just afkguardian somewhere for 20 waves in a row any more (Unless you do as I do and host petfarming runs with randoms as repair bots while doing other stuff :D)
I don't think that's a bad change. All they need to do now is add some more interesting mobs, reduce wave length on survivals that aren't misty by 20-50% and fix all the bugs that have been plaguing the game since for ever and things will get really nice.

I don't deny that Djinn can be annoying, most challenges are (Challenges as in hard stuff). The good thing about annoying stuff is that once you learn to deal with them and beat them despite the odds, it feels much more satisfying than completing something that's easy.