Sky O' Love - Harsh but Fair Evaluation

[Volkamar]

I'm going get straight to the point with this one. There is a lot wrong with this Map. A whole lot. In fact I would go as far as saying that the only thing right about it is the Music, which as always, is fantastic. I hope your Music Producer got laid for this musical triumph. If not, then i'll buy him an escort or something (Don't count on it, i'm poor). The rest however makes me fairly certain that this, like much of your Patching of late, is untested and is riddled with so many problems that makes this map about as fun to play as the Mega Drive/Genesis version of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (If you happen to like that game, more power to you, but you're freaking insane). I'll try as much as I can to boil it down without going too deep into the issues.

- Although this is being fixed somewhat, the Map relies way too much on gaudy pink Fog to create it's aesthetic, and it literally looks like the result your Graphics Designer having a wrestling match with a Cotton Candy Machine and unfortunately it did not turn out too well for the former. Where's the variation? There are tons of things you can do with this. White marble staircases with gold railings, giant heart-Shaped chocolate box platforms, cherry blossom fields, and that's just to name a few examples of what you could have done. That map just feels like i'm running around on a giant pink blob with teddy bears and chocolate boxes just dotted randomly in hopes that would be enough.

- The idea behind the gameplay for this map seems great in theory, but there is a problem, and that is that this game DOES NOT IN IT'S CURRENT STATE suit the style of play you are trying to get players to utilize in order to accomplish the goals this map sets out. This is a game where Enemies are programmed with a pre-determined path hard coded into their very skulls, indeed, this is how a Tower Defence game normally works. Not only that, but the aggro mechanics in this game are simply not up to par to do this sort of thing. Unless you're standing two inches away from the enemy with the latest issue of Hustler held in front of their eyeballs, they will not follow you, and will lose interest very quickly. This would have been obvious if the map was tested properly, at least, that's what I think.

- Also, whilst on the subject of gameplay, Whose bright idea was it to make the enemies get stronger as time goes on during a wave? Especially on this map where you are constantly fight against poor enemy pathing and very demanding aggro mechanics. The end result of this is a level of appeal rivalling the Electric Chair. This simply isn't necessary, especially if your intention is keep the map as it is, as it simply takes far too long to get even a single match once you have finally triumphed over the two points mentioned earlier in this paragraph. All this does is further serve to aggravate the player on top of all the other nonsense that is going on within this Map. Again, I have to ask, was this even tested?

- Furthermore, the fact that once you even managed to lure a Male or Female monster, that you still then have to make sure the same species is lured. I know you were trying to be clever with this and vary things up a bit, but really, this only increases the frustration this map seems to give out in spades. Again, this really isn't necessary, and it doesn't serve to make the map any more interesting or fresh. Honestly, I believe you only need to have one species that can spawn as Male or Female, heck make it the Goblins since you get the Goblin Cupid pet at the end. I have to ask yet again, was this tested? Did someone play this map and honestly say "This different enemies spawning as Gender thing is really unique and interesting, way more so that just having the same one enemy possibly spawn as Male or Female."?

- Also, thanks to TrendyEnts Patented Pathing Code, we say "Hello!" once again to our good friend Mr. Enemies that get Stuck on Absolutely Nothing at all... ESQ. This seems to be most obvious on the large bridge that stands as the highest point of the Map, and funnily enough, one of the best places to try desperately to create matches. As you try to lure the enemies toward their potential partners like some kind of Cilla Black wannabe, you'll find that the enemies are staggering around all over place, on what should be a straight line. Sometimes they don't even get that far, they simply just stop and give up, and go back that pre-determined path I was telling you about earlier. This is something that should be ironed out.

In conclusion, all of these points make this map an absolute torture to play, even on the easiest difficulties (mostly due to the enemies getting stronger thing too mind) and I am suspect to belief that this Map simply wasn't tested... at all. The only real solution I can offer is to go right back to square one, come up with a concept that works with the mechanics of your game and not against it, and TEST TEST TEST and make sure it works before sending it out.

(NOTE: I didn't include the hardware throttling because that should be getting fixed next patch)

[michaeljermyn]

Agreed, this map is pretty disappointing and not fun at all - just aggravating.

[Hauntedshadows]

I can't agree more with the top post

[Kharnos]

I have to agree with everything you said. I think it is pretty obvious that they had what could have been a good idea and implemented it even if it didn't work with the game mechanics.

They also (again) forgot to ask themselves "is this fun?" Even what may seem like the best idea on paper should be tossed out the window if playing it is not fun.

[Trannie West]

it's garbage.... no need to write half a novel about it..

[Volkamar]

it's garbage.... no need to write half a novel about it..

I figured that too, but some people just seem to think we're complaining for the sake of it, or find it hard "Because we're clearly hackers who seem to think our problems can only be solved with making rediculous stat Towers". I'm looking at you Rrruff, wherever you are.

Besides, if I put why it is bad and compile why in a constructive manner, then maybe (but unlikely) someone might listen and perhaps think of some way to make the Map bearable.

[Ethos]

"is this fun?" Even what may seem like the best idea on paper should be tossed out the window if playing it is not fun.

All that needs to be said about this map.

[cacodaemon]

Sorry to see someone took time to make this map. Hopefully it didn't take away resources from fixing some of the real problems with this game. I hated it and will never play it again. I guess that is what free equates to.

[Trannie West]

Sorry to see someone took time to make this make. I hated it and will never play it again. I guess that is what free equates to.

they will start ripping people off after a free period....

[kreyson]

[QUOTE=michaeljermyn;342422]Agreed, this map is pretty disappointing and not fun at all - just aggravating.[/QUOTE


/sign

[ChaChaCha]

I've found this map to be very relaxing.. Beautiful scenery mixed with great music. The mechanics may need a bit of tweaking but this map is possible solo thru insane. Nightmare mode is a bit different but what do you expect? Taking your time to find a strategy is what makes this game fun imo.. Give TE a few days to fix a few glitches with the pathing and the ground and this will be a nice change to the original game.

[Volkamar]

I've found this map to be very relaxing.. Beautiful scenery mixed with great music. The mechanics may need a bit of tweaking but this map is possible solo thru insane. Nightmare mode is a bit different but what do you expect? Taking your time to find a strategy is what makes this game fun imo.. Give TE a few days to fix a few glitches with the pathing and the ground and this will be a nice change to the original game.

I agree when you say having to take your time to find a strategy is fun, and it is, being able to overcome something by looking back and thinking about it is one of the most gratifying thing about games like this. However, even when you find the strategy, the fun element is non-existant. When you're trying to think the most optimal way to complete the map, it still isn't fun. The fact of the matter is the map simply isn't fun, even when you find a way that can by all means beat it, executing the strategy just isn't fun and doesn't make the Map any more entertaining due to the issues I have presented in the top post.

The luring them across the bridge strategy i've already covered so lets use the Portal Gun strategy, to take an example, which still doesn't make the Map any more fun once you figure it out. The terrible Map design and coding still make it so that enemies will walk right underneath your Portals, even when you are on a straight path. Trying to get it so that you eventually get the same species to bump into each other is still tedious as all hell. And, perhaps most importantly, it still takes an age and a half just to get through one wave and in this time the enemies are getting stronger and stronger. You could literally be waiting minutes just to make one match out of anywhere between 12-20 for the wave at the middle of the game. Do you see where I am going with this?

[iNinjah]

... TEST TEST TEST and make sure it works before sending it out.

This basicly coutns for everything they do, seems like they don't test the changes at all, or the beta testers are brain dead.

Anyway, completely agree with everthing +5*

[qian]

all this map had to do was become another "defend the crystal from X mobs per wave" and i would have loved it

it could have been like umf and i would have loved it

instead it had to be a "bring pairs of same mobs with opposite genders together while protecting 2 crystals with limited du and a boss fight at the end"

doing things differently for the sake of fun is cool
this is not the case.
fun for 1 (probably over geared nothing left to do folks) and lame/boring/waste of time for 9? 99?
let's make a poll for this and see how many people enjoy/hate it the way it is right now

sure it was free (for us) but what about others when it stops being free? (limited time only) paying for what seemed like a bonus map with costume rewards and then getting a map that is hateful to play in all possible ways except for blinding scenery... really??? just leave it as free cause who'd want to pay for this crap?

thanks for the free gift
how many hours did it take?

[pygmyshrew]

Well said, OP!

[FruitLord]

Remove the crystals, make the mobs target you like UMF. You can't sit in one spot and blindly destroy stuff as you'll end up destroying mates. Problem solved?

[injected11]

Remove the crystals, make the mobs target you like UMF. You can't sit in one spot and blindly destroy stuff as you'll end up destroying mates. Problem solved?

If they remove the crystals, they need to add a life/respawn tally or add a timer, otherwise there would be no way to LOSE the mission. You'd continually respawn until the mobs ended up matching themselves.

[Xen0nex]

I support all the points of the OP and this thread.

My pure speculation is that this level was somewhat rushed in order to make the Valentine's Day deadline. This is understandable given the backlash that was given over the Barbarian's delay for release, and the importance of this level coming out on the day it is themed after.

However, given that I essentially spent 3 hours performing a very unrewarding and frustrating task, that ultimately ended in complete failure, I would have preferred for this to either be delayed until it works smoothly, or not released at all. With the current state of things, I've invested wasted time into what I consider to be an incomplete asset.

I love this game to death, but as with anything else in life, would prefer to get something late, or not at all, than to get something that ends up being a negative experience.

[Fofner]

It is a bummer. All of the seasonal maps so far have very little replay value, except the exception of spook. You will do them once or twice for costume rewards, and then never again. And while it's free, I'm definately not complaining - but if I put my time, and effort into creating something like that I would want it to be as enjoyable as any other map.

I think it's a cool approach what they try to do keeping it a themed map for the holiday

Valentines = make couples
Winterfest = Deliver Presents
Thanksgiving = Kill turkeys

Spook = on the other hand wasnt much of a stretch, sure there were monsters trick or treating, but if it was more like the others we should have to have been trick or treating ourselves, it was just more of a tower defense like map (which to me so far has had the most success in still being a sweet map to replay, look at, and keep enjoying/farming rewards) which is what I would think Trendy wants in every new content they put out for this game. I hate to say anything negative to discourage them from cool ideas, but in my honest opinion every holiday DLC free or not is less more entertaining, bottom line.

Edit; The new map I really like the graphics and music to also btw, but I think a new map with a boss is more than enough without having to add some task onto it. Or even just dressing the map up like spook or winterfest and putting things in costumes, I don't know, maybe I'm just a simpleton.

[DeadlyBlaze]

I agree with the OP's first and part of the second point only. This map to me is super easy in easy to insane mode. All you need is good teamwork(3-4ppl) and strategy. Nightmare on-the-other hand is crazy, but its probably because I haven't found a good strategy yet. People just need to take the time to study the maps and make connections. So yeah this map isn't bad to me, though the number of matches can be reduced a bit(32 matches at last wave(insane) is a bit much don't you think?). Btw I build and match and my tower stats are 300-500 only(mage).

[JeremyStieglitz]

Fof, we'll definitely consider releasing a straight TD version of the VDay map in the future, if people would like that (and it sounds like they would).

For Holiday events, we've tried to deviate from a direct TD approach and save that for the Eternia Shards, but it's clear that having more TD options would definitely be something people want too.

Our immediate upcoming focus is on Prez Day and Eternia Shards 2 (which of course has plenty of TD), but after that we will see about TD-ing up Sky O' Love and Frostdale.

Cheers,
Jeremy

[Volkamar]

Fof, we'll definitely consider releasing a straight TD version of the VDay map in the future, if people would like that (and it sounds like they would).

For Holiday events, we've tried to deviate from a direct TD approach and save that for the Eternia Shards, but it's clear that having more TD options would definitely be something people want too.

Our immediate upcoming focus is on Prez Day and Eternia Shards 2 (which of course has plenty of TD), but after that we will see about TD-ing up Sky O' Love and Frostdale.

Cheers,
Jeremy

It's not that we don't like you deviating from the direct TD approach, it's just in this case, the mechanics of the TD simply do not allow the deviation you are trying to deliever unless you literally went in there and coded the game to behave completely differently than what I normally does. Such as making aggro stick a lot better to name one such example. But I appreciate the offer of a straight up TD version of this map, and i'm sure many others would too.

[Lyho]

I think you could do some things very easily to already make this map a lot less awful to play, some examples :

-make all gendered mobs have DEWs AI, run faster, match with anything...
-reduce the number of matches needed which makes the game last forever on sometimes unstable conditions (which hads A LOT to the frustration)
-reduce overall core defense difficulty as solo playing on this is even more a pain and because a challenge based on the fact that your character needs not to be checking defenses shouldn't put too much pressure on defenses (here you have 6 ways, aerial rushes, kobolds, ogres, necromancers and DEWs : that's a lot to ask for defenses alone and is not necessarily easy to upkeep either)
-make it one wave less long
-insert any other pain-freeing idea here


I think this sort of map should be an occasion for you to forget about your hardcore gamers and just give us something fun and not that hard to accomplish, and by hard I don't necessarily talk about the challenge difficulty but about how hard it is to actually convince people to endure this...
When starting this challenge the only thing you want is it to be over, that's wrong as you should be able to enjoy it while playing it.

I am truly sorry to have to be so rude about your work, the initial idea was fine but the addition of a lot a flaws makes it really anything-but-fun right now. I would really like to say I'm happy with it and that you did well but some minor changes would have made this sooooo much enjoyable, it is really a shame !

[Fofner]

Fof, we'll definitely consider releasing a straight TD version of the VDay map in the future, if people would like that (and it sounds like they would).

For Holiday events, we've tried to deviate from a direct TD approach and save that for the Eternia Shards, but it's clear that having more TD options would definitely be something people want too.

Our immediate upcoming focus is on Prez Day and Eternia Shards 2 (which of course has plenty of TD), but after that we will see about TD-ing up Sky O' Love and Frostdale.

Cheers,
Jeremy

I definately look forward to playing the valentines day map without having to make couples, lol.. I'm afraid to even mention the Assault mission pack: 3 as a tower defense, I've completed it dozens and still get lost in there!
Can't wait to play ES2, the teasers I've seen of the desert map look very appealing. Thanks again for the free map :)

[Anxt]

Yeah, unfortunately I decided to just give up after a few waves. I was playing on medium (as I always do at first to get my bearings before attempting harder difficulties) and I think the third wave wanted me to match 14 pairs. During the first few waves, I kinda chilled and upgraded everyting to at least one star, and everything was going fine. Then the third wave hit, and kobolds started reaching my defenses, which were apparently close enough to my crystals to allow them to be damaged (yes, this is my fault for not placing them properly). I got about 3 matches through and just got tired of it. I basically just spammed MMs around each crystal (I have roughly 400 T-attack on my app) and they did fine, even through a very much prolonged wave 2, but I just got really tired of spending 5 minutes trying to drag mobs together. I just quit to my tavern and left to play Minecraft.

As with many other opinions, I think it could work as a concept, but it is just to clunky and annoying to work as it is now. I will not be playing it again, I don't think. :(

I do still love the game, though.

[Gentoon]

I registered just to post this.

The map is not fun at all, It's doable if you have a portal gun and lots of time, but I'm not sure the pain and suffering of doing this map would be worth it, even for the exceptional countess skin.

It's boring, time consuming, monotonous, and not straight-forward at all.

Thank you, Trendy, for the free content. We totally appreciate the background, map, and costumes. it's awesome that you guys do stuff for every holiday.

BUT

The game is ridiculously stupid even on easy difficulty. I'd rather shoot turkeys.

[Xen0nex]

A bunch of good ideas put forth in a reasonable manner.

I think Lyho has a bunch of good ideas put forth in a reasonable manner. That is to say, the concept of the map is very nice, but the execution is very poor. Allowing that the kind of core mechanic/coding changes necessary to have it run as it was envisioned may be difficult, I think Lyho's "quality of life" suggestions will at least make it bearable.

If the core gameplay of the mission is not rewarding unto itself (As most of the other missions in the game are), at least make it faster to get through :P

[nsih197]

Fof, we'll definitely consider releasing a straight TD version of the VDay map in the future, if people would like that (and it sounds like they would).

For Holiday events, we've tried to deviate from a direct TD approach and save that for the Eternia Shards, but it's clear that having more TD options would definitely be something people want too.

Our immediate upcoming focus is on Prez Day and Eternia Shards 2 (which of course has plenty of TD), but after that we will see about TD-ing up Sky O' Love and Frostdale.

Cheers,
Jeremy

sounds amazing, definitely do want