To the higher levels players, let me explain why people are frustrated

[Mr.Big]

First of all, the reaction of the community has been a little over the top, I'll be the first to admit that. And I can see where you're coming from as well. You think these assault challenges, or mystmire, should be reserved for only the very best players, and in your eyes, they are relatively easy. the same can be said of assault.

However here's the thing. back when you were a low level player, when you were farming your first high level gear in mystmire, getting to high waves in mistmyre was much easier than it is now. You were able to accrue this gear with much lower stats than people can now, and thus were able to improve much more quickly. It's a cake walk for you now, and you may see the nerf necessary to keep the game challenging. but the only reason you're where you are now, is because it WAS easier. Misty in particular, the amount of ogres which spawn now is mind boggling. When addressing our complaints, at least try and look at it through the eyes of someone with the stats that you had at the same point.

I'm not saying that the degree to which the community had complained is warranted, but you have to understand there are people out there with maybe 600-800 tower attack, who were starting misty farming, who now cannot make it through even endless spires. this makes it much harder to progress. And you have to realize, they're thinking "So those who came before got to get amazing gear with less stats; essentially I'm being punished for being a late adopter?"

I'm not saying your stance is wrong, I'm simply saying, you have to realize that some degree of anger of frustration is warranted.

[knox]

If you can't make it through ES with 800 stats you're doing something severely wrong.

[LastWolf]

If you can't make it through ES with 800 stats you're doing something severely wrong.

So in a thread complaining about the elitism of some players' arguments your first thought is to insult a middle-end players ability to play the game?

Regardless of whether or not you're right or wrong, you completely missed the point.

[fluffycalico]

Isn't endless spires the one that we have a video and instructions up of someone soloing it on nightmare with nothing but a low ^ staff and no gear on at all?

[knox]

Isn't endless spires the one that we have a video and instructions up of someone soloing it on nightmare with nothing but a low ^ staff and no gear on at all?

Yessir

[Falacer]

Link said video I for one have never seen it.

In reference to the other comments above, you missed the point of the OP.

[LastWolf]

Link said video I for one have never seen it.

In reference to the other comments above, you missed the point of the OP.

I think they intentionally missed it because it was about them. When you have someone who has the best, and someone who doesn't have the best complains because it is now more difficult to have the best, the people who already have the best see it as "whining" when in reality its a legitimate argument.

And its not even the fact that its "more difficult" rather than its non-progressive. You hit a huge wall now when trying to get better gear due to the poor design of Survival Mode.

[knox]

I didn't miss it, I'm aware the progression is tougher now that apps are balanced. However, if you can't pass ES with 800 stats, you're doing something severely wrong. That's fault of the player, not difficulty.

[LastWolf]

I didn't miss it, I'm aware the progression is tougher now that apps are balanced. However, if you can't pass ES with 800 stats, you're doing something severely wrong. That's fault of the player, not difficulty.

So instead of saying, "Hey I agree with your post, but maybe you're doing something wrong with ES" you decided to only be insulting and ignore the actual argument of the post. Great decision.

[fluffycalico]

He was pointing out that if you can't play well with good strats you are going to have issues no matter what...Enter the hacked 2700 to every single stat but cant unlock misty group.

[Sqq]

Let me tell you. I started playing this game right after christmas. Didn't get into it til January. Me and a friend grinded the **** out of the game to get to where we are now. We wipped for 2 weeks on wave 12 Mistmire. We tweeked builds, got to wave 12, dug out the problems and started again. Over & over.This was 3 weeks ago. When we finally did manage to get into the routine of repairing, upgrading etc, we made HUGE progress and got to wave 20. We where stuck there for DAYS. we played 24\7, we did everything we could but we just could not get past that point. We tweeked and tweeked. Suddenly everything fit. Our build was perfect for us, our teamwork excellent, everything. Suddenly we where breaking wave 20 each time. We gathered gear, and with help of lady luck we marched on.

Are you saying that I had it easy ? I got to where i am now with insane amount of time played in 5 weeks. I put in the hours. I don't know when this game was "easy" if it was before or after the patch, or before another patch, but tbh if its after this patch, it has gotten a bit harder I agree. But if you couldn't do it before this patch, your gear, skill or stats where not good enough anyways. You need to work on that instead of using time complaining & getting frustrating.

The day you treat this game as a grinding game, that my friend is the day you will progress.

Also check out my shop for gear wave 15+ ;)

[Mr.Big]

to clarify some points, Endless Spires was simply an example, I suppose something like 400 tower health and attack would have been a better example. but the main point still stands. as for the above poster, I do not think you had it easy, no. however it was easier than it is now. that's really the whole point I'm trying to make. you can no longer get far enough in misty to get better gear using gear which was not had in misty. this is the underlying problem, progression is much too difficult. I myself have 1000 tower attach, 750 tower health, 600's in range and and attack speed. This gear was gotten through countless times grinding endless spires, sleuthing various shops and is approximately 80 up good tower stat armor, that has been maxed out. the logical progression is to now do mystmire. however, I can barely make it a few waves, and the loot I'm getting is not better than that which I already have.

At the moment it is not impossible to progress, however it is quite difficult, and you can understand hearing the argument "misty hc survival was too easy anyway" from someone with 2000+ tower health and damage, would be incredibly frustrating to someone trying to progress. This is the point I'm trying to get across.

[fluffycalico]

to clarify some points, Endless Spires was simply an example, I suppose something like 400 tower health and attack would have been a better example. but the main point still stands. as for the above poster, I do not think you had it easy, no. however it was easier than it is now. that's really the whole point I'm trying to make. you can no longer get far enough in misty to get better gear using gear which was not had in misty. this is the underlying problem, progression is much too difficult. I myself have 1000 tower attach, 750 tower health, 600's in range and and attack speed. This gear was gotten through countless times grinding endless spires, sleuthing various shops and is approximately 80 up good tower stat armor, that has been maxed out. the logical progression is to now do mystmire. however, I can barely make it a few waves, and the loot I'm getting is not better than that which I already have.

At the moment it is not impossible to progress, however it is quite difficult, and you can understand hearing the argument "misty hc survival was too easy anyway" from someone with 2000+ tower health and damage, would be incredibly frustrating to someone trying to progress. This is the point I'm trying to get across.
Ramparts drops 254^ weapons and 220^+ armor that is plenty .

[Vallos]

Problem is, elitist people with ~no life~ who have spend literally thousands of hours to get to the point where there are ZERO challenges left are always going to act like this.

They are completely clueless as to how the rest of us actually play and are utterly incapable of realizing that not everyone has limitless time to spend learning every inch of every single map in order to determine the optimal methods for ripping though it, gear or no gear.

To their tunnel vision perspective, if you aren't willing to put in the utterly ridiculous time required to get to their level then they seem to feel that you don't deserve somehow to be able to advance upwards past a certain point.

The exact same mentality is in WoW and every other game where "no lifers" are willing to spend ludicrous amounts of time grinding away at a ~game~ in order to feel "superior" to everyone else.

And frankly, if the game environment wasn't structured to allow such an "elitist class" for the one tenth of one percent (or less) of people willing to go to such extremes then those same people would quickly move on to another ~game~ where they can grind away endlessly in order to create an imaginary teir that they can climb to to look down upon everyone else from.

Arguing with such a person over changes which do not effect them personally is frankly pointless.

The only thing that they will see worth of complaint is if content is altered to make it ~easier~ for others to advance to their level of play in which case you can be sure that the indignant howls that such changes will "ruin the game!" will be swiftly spammed all over the forums.

[fluffycalico]

Problem is, elitist people with ~no life~ .
I have a full time job, house, girl friend, and spend time with family friends. The problem is people think you need to play 100hrs a week to be able to understand how to play well. There are plenty of people getting this stuff done that only play 15-20hrs a week.

[Vallos]

I have a full time job, house, girl friend, and spend time with family friends. The problem is people think you need to play 100hrs a week to be able to understand how to play well. There are plenty of people getting this stuff done that only play 15-20hrs a week.

Uh huh... Of course... How silly of me.

:rolleyes:

Just 80-90 hours a month...

Over 4+ months...


*whistles a merry tune...

[fluffycalico]

Unless you have a 2nd job or a 6 month old kid...15hrs a free time per week is not much. If you have less than that you need to relook at your schedule before you drive yourself crazy. You only get 1 life find some time to enjoy it.

[Vallos]

Unless you have a 2nd job or a 6 month old kid...15hrs a free time per week is not much. If you have less than that you need to relook at your schedule before you drive yourself crazy. You only get 1 life find some time to enjoy it.

So... your total time played is less than 340 hours?

Really?

:D

[V-chaos]

Unless you have a 2nd job or a 6 month old kid...15hrs a free time per week is not much. If you have less than that you need to relook at your schedule before you drive yourself crazy. You only get 1 life find some time to enjoy it.

Shouldnt be wasting your time, it looks like hes trying to flame bait.

[fluffycalico]

So... your total time played is less than 340 hours?

Really?

:D
Without my afk store being counted yep.

[Sqq]

Problem is, elitist people with ~no life~ who have spend literally thousands of hours to get to the point where there are ZERO challenges left are always going to act like this.

They are completely clueless as to how the rest of us actually play and are utterly incapable of realizing that not everyone has limitless time to spend learning every inch of every single map in order to determine the optimal methods for ripping though it, gear or no gear.

To their tunnel vision perspective, if you aren't willing to put in the utterly ridiculous time required to get to their level then they seem to feel that you don't deserve somehow to be able to advance upwards past a certain point.

The exact same mentality is in WoW and every other game where "no lifers" are willing to spend ludicrous amounts of time grinding away at a ~game~ in order to feel "superior" to everyone else.

And frankly, if the game environment wasn't structured to allow such an "elitist class" for the one tenth of one percent (or less) of people willing to go to such extremes then those same people would quickly move on to another ~game~ where they can grind away endlessly in order to create an imaginary teir that they can climb to to look down upon everyone else from.

Arguing with such a person over changes which do not effect them personally is frankly pointless.

The only thing that they will see worth of complaint is if content is altered to make it ~easier~ for others to advance to their level of play in which case you can be sure that the indignant howls that such changes will "ruin the game!" will be swiftly spammed all over the forums.

haha. I rather enjoyed reading that. I spent my 4 weeks with illness playing this game hard to get where I am. I agree with what you say, and I've always been one of those who strive to be the best in games like this. I've spent 14 days ingame in 4 weeks (Yes, I know. Don't say it :D ) I do it because I want to distinguish myself from people who play less, beat content others can't etc. But a part of me kind of agree with you. It should be possible to approach the content and beat it somehow. Even tho WoW tried to cater to the casuals, they still had some parts that cater to the hardcore players. The end game here (Mistmire) caters solely to the hardcore players. I don't mind, but I can see why people are frustrated.

Edit: about 3ish days off that time has been afk shop tho! so 11 days!

[Vallos]

Shouldnt be wasting your time, it looks like hes trying to flame bait.

No, I just don't believe him.

Simple as that.

[fluffycalico]

Problem is, elitist people with ~no life~ who have spend literally thousands of hours to get to the point where there are ZERO challenges left are always going to act like this.

They are completely clueless as to how the rest of us actually play and are utterly incapable of realizing that not everyone has limitless time to spend learning every inch of every single map in order to determine the optimal methods for ripping though it, gear or no gear.

To their tunnel vision perspective, if you aren't willing to put in the utterly ridiculous time required to get to their level then they seem to feel that you don't deserve somehow to be able to advance upwards past a certain point.

The exact same mentality is in WoW and every other game where "no lifers" are willing to spend ludicrous amounts of time grinding away at a ~game~ in order to feel "superior" to everyone else.

And frankly, if the game environment wasn't structured to allow such an "elitist class" for the one tenth of one percent (or less) of people willing to go to such extremes then those same people would quickly move on to another ~game~ where they can grind away endlessly in order to create an imaginary teir that they can climb to to look down upon everyone else from.

Arguing with such a person over changes which do not effect them personally is frankly pointless.

The only thing that they will see worth of complaint is if content is altered to make it ~easier~ for others to advance to their level of play in which case you can be sure that the indignant howls that such changes will "ruin the game!" will be swiftly spammed all over the forums.
Does your post really say that those without the time to become good at a game or get good gear or know the board should still beat the hardest board on the hardest setting?
Guess life should hand you a PHD just because you don't have time to go to college.

[Vallos]

haha. I rather enjoyed reading that. I spent my 4 weeks with illness playing this game hard to get where I am. I agree with what you say, and I've always been one of those who strive to be the best in games like this. I've spent 14 days ingame in 4 weeks (Yes, I know. Don't say it :D ) I do it because I want to distinguish myself from people who play less, beat content others can't etc. But a part of me kind of agree with you. It should be possible to approach the content and beat it somehow. Even tho WoW tried to cater to the casuals, they still had some parts that cater to the hardcore players. The end game here (Mistmire) caters solely to the hardcore players. I don't mind, but I can see why people are frustrated.

Edit: about 3ish days off that time has been afk shop tho! so 11 days!

See... That I believe.

And please note that I have never said that people shouldn't play like that ~if they choose to~ just that the perspective of someone who does will never be aligned to understand the problems that changes to lower level content cause to the "casual" players who nevertheless still want some avenue for advancement beyond where insane/early nightmare can take them.

It's like asking a billionaire to empathize with a family that earns 40k per year over a 5% increase in their homeowner's policy.

Worlds apart.

[LastWolf]

Regardless about how you feel about "elitism" the point still stands. Whether you spent a lot of time grinding your heart out to beat everything (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) or you play casually, it doesn't matter. The issue is with people thinking because they did the former that they're opinion is better because they've done it already and there's no possible way they could be wrong.

When other people say something is too hard, or the progression isn't right (which it isn't) their mindset is "I did it, therefore it is right." That is a stupid way to think. The reason people get hotheaded is because of the way people generally say "you're wrong". Instead of giving legitimate arguments and reasons for their beliefs, they stab at you with "You're wrong. I'm right. End of story." That is where the term "elitism" comes from.

Now, try and give actual reasons as to why you disagree with the statements "Progression is messed up" or "Progression past "Point A" is too hard" and people won't get so worked up. Then you can have a legitimate discussion rather then back to back pointless arguments that generally just deteriorate into a flame war.

[Vallos]

Does your post really say that those without the time to become good at a game or get good gear or know the board should still beat the hardest board on the hardest setting?
Guess life should hand you a PHD just because you don't have time to go to college.

No, it SAYS that those who are able/willing to grind away endlessly in order to do so will never understand the frustrations of those who are not when they see the few (much slower) avenues for advancement in the game dry up or become nerfed down to the point of mediocrity soon after they are aquired.

And FYI.. Colleges hand out PHDs all the time to people who never put in any hours at their school... They are called Honorary degrees given out typically to recognize someone who was never able to have time for college's philanthropy or achievements in other aspects of their lives.

[Sqq]

Regardless about how you feel about "elitism" the point still stands. Whether you spent a lot of time grinding your heart out to beat everything (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) or you play casually, it doesn't matter. The issue is with people thinking because they did the former that they're opinion is better because they've done it already and there's no possible way they could be wrong.

When other people say something is too hard, or the progression isn't right (which it isn't) their mindset is "I did it, therefore it is right." That is a stupid way to think. The reason people get hotheaded is because of the way people generally say "you're wrong". Instead of giving legitimate arguments and reasons for their beliefs, they stab at you with "You're wrong. I'm right. End of story." That is where the term "elitism" comes from.

Now, try and give actual reasons as to why you disagree with the statements "Progression is messed up" or "Progression past "Point A" is too hard" and people won't get so worked up. Then you can have a legitimate discussion rather then back to back pointless arguments that generally just deteriorate into a flame war.

I can name 1 progression in the game I think is a bit unfair. The Nightmare version of the Spider Queen. A casual group who doesn't dedicate a lot of time to kill her, never will. It will be hard to keep defenses up during the fight, handle spiders + spider babies, repair towers, find safe locations to heal, etc. We wiped so hard on here when we progressed. We where happy when we did 2 million damage to her. Then after playing A LOT we managed to get her to 50%. Most people don't know she starts hitting harder around 50ish %. It will be a shock and most people won't know what hit them. Then comes the 15~ and goodbye to the casual groups. Towers will be smashed to shreds without knowledge, skill and experience. The fight is very hard for casual players. I try and help people when I have time, by rushing them through the fight so they can experience survival, and try and collect some gear.

[fluffycalico]

And FYI.. Colleges hand out PHDs all the time to people who never put in any hours at their school... They are called Honorary degrees.
That's a promotional type award not a degree...try becomming a lawyer, DR, dentist etc with one of those honorary degrees. Its nothing more than a promotional paper.

[LastWolf]

I can name 1 progression in the game I think is a bit unfair. The Nightmare version of the Spider Queen. A casual group who doesn't dedicate a lot of time to kill her, never will. It will be hard to keep defenses up during the fight, handle spiders + spider babies, repair towers, find safe locations to heal, etc. We wiped so hard on here when we progressed. We where happy when we did 2 million damage to her. Then after playing A LOT we managed to get her to 50%. Most people don't know she starts hitting harder around 50ish %. It will be a shock and most people won't know what hit them. Then comes the 15~ and goodbye to the casual groups. Towers will be smashed to shreds without knowledge, skill and experience. The fight is very hard for casual players. I try and help people when I have time, by rushing them through the fight so they can experience survival, and try and collect some gear.

See that's not really my problem. My problem is the only way I can seem to get better gear is through AFK shops or ridiculous grinding to where even then I might not get enough.

There's a huge gap somewhere between Mid-Nightmare and Mid-High-Nightmare where the ability to get better gear vanishes. That's a problem. If I can't get better gear, I can't do anything above my current set of completions. Its not my ability that is impeding me, rather than the availability of gear.

[Vallos]

And one thing to note about my perspective...

I bought the game on Dec. 28th and have managed to level an Apprentice to 74, equip him in reasonable gear:

Tower stats : 730/940/567/668

From items that I farmed from Spires and MM.

I have soloed every map in the NM campaign except for the Throne Room and Summit where the bosses still give me trouble as does the Spider Queen in MM.

I ~will~ beat them at some point but it will probably require me to hunt down some help as I cannot maintain the defenses at the same time that I am dealing with the bosses. Keep in mind that I am not complaining about that as I fully understand that the game is designed for multi-player contributions it's just that with my weird work environment I tend to have to walk away from the game and put it on pause for 30-60 minutes at a time with really no warning so I tend not to drag other people into maps with me.

That being said, right now I am at the cusp between the "casual" level of the game and the "elite" and as such can understand to some degree both viewpoints.

I may not agree with them, but I can see them.

[knox]

I work 30 hours a week. I go to school 15 hours. I hang out with my friends Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. I have a dps and builder both with 2k+ stats. I am the 1% doing endgame Misty. Problem?

[Vallos]

That's a promotional type award not a degree...try becomming a lawyer, DR, dentist etc with one of those honorary degrees. Its nothing more than a promotional paper.

Technically, anyone who can pass the Bar exam can practice law degree or not...

That being said, no firm in their right mind would ever hire such an individual and any case tried with them acting as counsel would be open for review automatically so most Judges would give them Hell for appearing before them in open court.

Also note, many colleges allow students to "comp" classes by simply paying the course fees and passing a battery of course specific examinations. This is usually done to allow older people to utilize life experience to help them "fast track" degrees later in life.

[Vallos]

I work 30 hours a week. I go to school 15 hours. I hang out with my friends Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. I have a dps and builder both with 2k+ stats. I am the 1% doing endgame Misty. Problem?

Problem? no.

Inability to understand/empathize with the casual player base (the other 99% of people who bought and pay for the game as well)?

Certainly.

[knox]

Problem? no.

Inability to understand/empathize with the casual player base (the other 99% of people who bought and pay for the game as well)?

Certainly.


I didn't miss it, I'm aware the progression is tougher now that apps are balanced. However, if you can't pass ES with 800 stats, you're doing something severely wrong. That's fault of the player, not difficulty.

oopsy

[Vallos]

See that's not really my problem. My problem is the only way I can seem to get better gear is through AFK shops or ridiculous grinding to where even then I might not get enough.

There's a huge gap somewhere between Mid-Nightmare and Mid-High-Nightmare where the ability to get better gear vanishes. That's a problem. If I can't get better gear, I can't do anything above my current set of completions. Its not my ability that is impeding me, rather than the availability of gear.

Try breaking past wave 8-10 in Survival on HC NM Spires.

That was what finally started dropping gear with 100-200+ stats and decent upgrade levels (100+ for armor 200+ for weapons) for me.

Hint: Buff the HELL out of your barricades in order to hold back the Ogres long enough for the towers to take them down. Three stars each if it can be swung with at least a star on your turrets. Using a good genie for the first few waves while dumping mana into upgrades as fast as you can max it out is key.

Once you can get past the Ogre swarm the next couple of levels are rather peaceful in comparison.

[Vallos]

oopsy

Yep... the 1% at one end of the harcore extreme mocking the 1% at the other casual end..

"Oopsy" is right.

[fluffycalico]

Problem? no.

Inability to understand/empathize with the casual player base (the other 99% of people who bought and pay for the game as well)?

Certainly.
You are still confusing casual player with unskilled and poorly geared. You have just been given 2 people in the 1% that time wise are barely above causal...Also I keep seeing posts that x farmed spires and misty but can't beat the boss...yet those people never respond when told told farm ramparts surrvival then kill the misty boss. Stop trying to short cut ramparts/alchemy surrvivals. Its more of a 4 step process than the 2 step people keep saying isn't working.

[knox]

Yep... the 1% at one end of the harcore extreme mocking the 1% at the other casual end..

"Oopsy" is right.

Neh, that's me acknowledging and sympathizing that progression is harder. If you can't clear ES with 800 stats that's the fault of the player, not difficulty.

[knox]

You are still confusing casual player with unskilled and poorly geared. You have just been given 2 people in the 1% that time wise are barely above causal...Also I keep seeing posts that x farmed spires and misty but can't beat the boss...yet those people never respond when told told farm ramparts surrvival then kill the misty boss. Stop trying to short cut ramparts/alchemy surrvivals. Its more of a 4 step process than the 2 step people keep saying isn't working.

And this. You can't just jump straight into Misty because you can clear ES. You might actually have to do something else in survival. There is NM progression, people are just too lazy and want the shortest route possible other than USD shops.

[fluffycalico]

Yep... the 1% at one end of the harcore extreme mocking the 1% at the other casual end..

"Oopsy" is right.
OK I am sick of your garbage. Define causal because both the people you are calling hardcore extreme fit into many peoples defination of causal or just above causal. Stop using causal to define only yourself and others who want everything given to them easy mode. That is not what causal means. The truth is many causal players are getting the stuff done you aren't able to. I'm sorry but sometimes the truth hurts.
PS> Have 2 other real life friends that play 10-15 hrs a week. Both have Mythical defender, almost have legenday defender, and have done some misty surrival...

[Vallos]

OK I am sick of your ****. Define causal because both the people you are calling hardcore extreme fit into many peoples defination of causal or just above causal. Stop using causal to define only yourself and others who want everything given to them easy mode. That is not what causal means. The truth is many causal players are getting the stuff done you aren't able to. I'm sorry but sometimes the truth hurts.

Wow.. You really aren't reading/understanding what I am saying at all are you?

I have already said that I do NOT define myself as "casual".

My current level of progress puts me on the lower end of the middle of the scale.

What I said is that I can still understand exactly how the "casual" players feel about the recent game changes, something that "hardcore" players cannot.

Oh, and as to your "2 people in the 1% that time wise are barely above causal."??

I don't beleive the time estimates given by said persons so... *shrug*.

IMO some people have an easier time fooling themselves about just how much time they ~really~ put into games like these than others.

Simple as that.

For example, I know that I put about 10-12 hours per week into this game over the past 5 weeks which has gotten me where I currently am.

Of course some of that has been playing around with goofy challenges and attempts to do oddball things to some maps just for fun that has nothing at all to do with "progress".

But so long as ~I'm~ having fun...

who cares?

[poskitt]

I myself have 1000 tower attach, 750 tower health, 600's in range and and attack speed. This gear was gotten through countless times grinding endless spires, sleuthing various shops and is approximately 80 up good tower stat armor, that has been maxed out. the logical progression is to now do mystmire. however, I can barely make it a few waves, and the loot I'm getting is not better than that which I already have.

At the moment it is not impossible to progress, however it is quite difficult, and you can understand hearing the argument "misty hc survival was too easy anyway" from someone with 2000+ tower health and damage, would be incredibly frustrating to someone trying to progress. This is the point I'm trying to get across.

Firstly, do you disagree that the hardest content in the game should require some of the best gear in the game, an optimal setup and good players? Because that's what it currently requires.

You say, "I can barely make it a few waves." That's fairly telling in itself. If you were playing with a regular partner or partners it should be, "We." Guess what? Misty NM HC isn't supposed to be solod. Some people can do it, I could solo to about wave 19-20 myself although I haven't tested it this current patch. It is supposed to be played with a solid group, with a good setup and with everyone having the right characters/pets.

That's what hard content is for. It's hard.

Have you tried it with 4 players all with similar gear to you, all with decent DPS characters with good App Guardians? By that I mean 60% resists in NM and App Guards with atleast 40 boost for 5 towers. Because that is achievable with the right 80^ gear. Then all 4 lanes towers focusing on the "insane amount of ogres," or however you put it, all do 4x the damage, and each lane has a repairer. Not to mention a good setup that prevents spiders webbing important towers or players.

By a lot of the posts in this thread people have not put in the work. NM HC Surv requires the right strat, the right amount of players and the right gear. Somebody made a post about life handing out PhD's which I think is fairly accurate. How you can complain that you can't complete content that somebody with a regular skilled group and 4x your playtime can...I will never understand.

The same complaining occurs in many games, but at the end of the day the content is possible. If we could all complete all the content, what would be the point? I play games for the challenge, I despise the "complete and move on" mindset. The more hours I get out of a game, working away at it, the better.

[Vallos]

to clarify some points, Endless Spires was simply an example, I suppose something like 400 tower health and attack would have been a better example. but the main point still stands. as for the above poster, I do not think you had it easy, no. however it was easier than it is now. that's really the whole point I'm trying to make. you can no longer get far enough in misty to get better gear using gear which was not had in misty. this is the underlying problem, progression is much too difficult. I myself have 1000 tower attach, 750 tower health, 600's in range and and attack speed. This gear was gotten through countless times grinding endless spires, sleuthing various shops and is approximately 80 up good tower stat armor, that has been maxed out. the logical progression is to now do mystmire. however, I can barely make it a few waves, and the loot I'm getting is not better than that which I already have.

At the moment it is not impossible to progress, however it is quite difficult, and you can understand hearing the argument "misty hc survival was too easy anyway" from someone with 2000+ tower health and damage, would be incredibly frustrating to someone trying to progress. This is the point I'm trying to get across.

1. Don't buy loot past your level of progress except as a last resort. It screws up your progression and sets you up for..


and the loot I'm getting is not better than that which I already have.

.. Which in turn leads to frustration.

2. Walk away from Misty and try to run survival waves on other maps like Spires or Ramparts on HC. Once you get into Wave 11-12 you start to see some of the drops which offer enough stats and upgrades to allow progression further. Running Spires in Campaign mode over and over again is only good for farming mana, not gear. For gear, you need to push deeper into the survival waves.

3. Soloing the Spider Queen is pointless. If you barely have the gear to get her to spawn then you will automatically lose. If your gear is at that point then the only way you have a chance against her is with 2-3 people who are equiped at least as well as you are as you need the extra bodies to support multiple guardians as well as for repairs and extra DPS while she is being fought.

[LastWolf]

Firstly, do you disagree that the hardest content in the game should require some of the best gear in the game, an optimal setup and good players? Because that's what it currently requires.

You say, "I can barely make it a few waves." That's fairly telling in itself. If you were playing with a regular partner or partners it should be, "We." Guess what? Misty NM HC isn't supposed to be solod. Some people can do it, I could solo to about wave 19-20 myself although I haven't tested it this current patch. It is supposed to be played with a solid group, with a good setup and with everyone having the right characters/pets.

That's what hard content is for. It's hard.

Have you tried it with 4 players all with similar gear to you, all with decent DPS characters with good App Guardians? By that I mean 60% resists in NM and App Guards with atleast 40 boost for 5 towers. Because that is achievable with the right 80^ gear. Then all 4 lanes towers focusing on the "insane amount of ogres," or however you put it, all do 4x the damage, and each lane has a repairer. Not to mention a good setup that prevents spiders webbing important towers or players.

By a lot of the posts in this thread people have not put in the work. NM HC Surv requires the right strat, the right amount of players and the right gear. Somebody made a post about life handing out PhD's which I think is fairly accurate. How you can complain that you can't complete content that somebody with a regular skilled group and 4x your playtime can...I will never understand.

The same complaining occurs in many games, but at the end of the day the content is possible. If we could all complete all the content, what would be the point? I play games for the challenge, I despise the "complete and move on" mindset. The more hours I get out of a game, working away at it, the better.

The point (for me at least) isn't "Mission So-in-so" is too hard, rather the path to be able to do said mission is jumbled and non-progressive. To get gear to be able to progress you have to jump through hoops and do non-intuitive things, which isn't what progression is about. The Campaign especially is very very wrong in that you end up doing the latter missions just to get the right gear to do the starter missions.

The case ends up being the same for trying to do Mistymire. Shouldn't I have enough gear to do MM if I've done a lot of Summit/Endless Spires? That would make sense wouldn't it? Even if you do get through the first couple of waves on Mistymire the gear you get from it is basically the same, if not worse then Summit gear.

And also, I shouldn't have to have other people to do Mistymire on Nightmare. Am I saying it should be easy for me to solo it? No. Not at all. But it shouldn't be so damn far out of the question.

[fluffycalico]

How hard and complicated is...spires on campaign...alchemy surrival...ramparts surrival...then misty boss?
You have been told this many times in this thread and are still complaining there is no progression path and have refused to even respond to the many posts telling where you are messing up on the path and what it is...

[Vallos]

The case ends up being the same for trying to do Mistymire. Shouldn't I have enough gear to do MM if I've done a lot of Summit/Endless Spires? That would make sense wouldn't it?


It would make sense IF completing the campaign mode for Spires didn't unlock the Survival mode.

THAT is where you find the gear which will get you into the range for beating the MM campaign.

The Campaign run is just the key to unlocking the other modes which in turn lead to better gear, if that weren't the case then there would be no point in bothering to run that mode except for pets and acheivements.

[Vallos]

How hard and complicated is...spires on campaign...alchemy surrival...ramparts surrival...then misty boss?


Spires on Survival is generally better overall than Alchemy. Once you get past the ogre wave DPS check then the better gear starts rolling in.

[LastWolf]

How hard and complicated is...spires on campaign...alchemy surrival...ramparts surrival...then misty boss?
You have been told this many times in this thread and are still complaining there is no progression path and have refused to even respond to the many posts telling where you are messing up on the path and what it is...

I'm not saying your path doesn't work. I will actually go and do it now that I see it is the way. I'm saying that path doesn't make sense. You act like what your saying is a simple "1-2-3" when in reality its a "9-4-8". Why in order to progress would you do that last set of missions first, then go back to one of the first missions, and then back to the end missions. Do the middle missions not even count?

This whole idea is wrong and anyone without prior knowledge would be horribly confused. Anyone trying Nightmare mode for the first time would think, "Hey, lets try Deeper Well first. That's the easiest campaign mission." They would then find out that that is definitely not the case for someone starting out.

The whole idea about progression is that you do something and get something slightly better to go on and do something slightly harder. Its a pattern that is broken up into odd steps that have you going forward and back for no reason. Is it honestly too horribly complicated? No. Is it silly and should probably be changed? Yes.

[knox]

Sigh, right now you're not exactly supposed to be jumping straight into NM after Insane. The current nightmare mode is early access and is supposed to be tuned for having all 4 DLCs, not just 1. Having to farm gear from the earlier missions to progress through Misty makes sense.

[LastWolf]

Sigh, right now you're not exactly supposed to be jumping straight into NM after Insane. The current nightmare mode is early access and is supposed to be tuned for having all 4 DLCs, not just 1. Having to farm gear from the earlier missions to progress through Misty makes sense.

I don't understand what you mean. I get that Nightmare is essentially a beta, but why should there be no sense of proper progression through the first 12 missions just because the DLC isn't out yet?

[knox]

I realize what I said is wordy. What I'm saying is the gear gap from Insane to NM will be bridged with future completion of the DLC maps on insane.

[poskitt]

And also, I shouldn't have to have other people to do Mistymire on Nightmare. Am I saying it should be easy for me to solo it? No. Not at all. But it shouldn't be so damn far out of the question.

Well, there's your problem. Unless they rebalance Guardian pets and ogres per player the game only gets easier the more players you have. You are bashing your head against the games hardest content (solo) and complaining that it's too hard. No progression? If you can do a few waves of Misty NM you will occasionally get progressive loot from the chests at the start of each wave. Even from as early as wave 2 or 3 i've seen decent stuff drop.

If you can't do even a couple of waves then either your setup is bad, or you utterly lack the stats to be trying to solo it. In which case the solution is simple - find a partner. I'm sorry, but if you're just going to keep repeating that the games hardest content should be soloable from the get-go then there's nothing anyone here can do to help you.

[fluffycalico]

I'm not saying your path doesn't work. I will actually go and do it now that I see it is the way. I'm saying that path doesn't make sense. You act like what your saying is a simple "1-2-3" when in reality its a "9-4-8". Why in order to progress would you do that last set of missions first, then go back to one of the first missions, and then back to the end missions. Do the middle missions not even count?

.
Its not confusing at all. The easiest surrival is alchemy so you go there after you get as far as you can in campaign. Then you go to a surrival with better gear. Ramparts is the easiest of the ones with better gear...Then you go to the endgame board they added after you gear up

[LastWolf]

Well, there's your problem. Unless they rebalance Guardian pets and ogres per player the game only gets easier the more players you have. You are bashing your head against the games hardest content (solo) and complaining that it's too hard. No progression? If you can do a few waves of Misty NM you will occasionally get progressive loot from the chests at the start of each wave. Even from as early as wave 2 or 3 i've seen decent stuff drop.

If you can't do even a couple of waves then either your setup is bad, or you utterly lack the stats to be trying to solo it. In which case the solution is simple - find a partner. I'm sorry, but if you're just going to keep repeating that the games hardest content should be soloable from the get-go then there's nothing anyone here can do to help you.

You're jumbling everything I've said together when they're separate arguments.

I've already progressed through the Low/Mid degree of Nightmare content. I don't like the way you're supposed to progress through it. Its messy and non-intuitive. That's one argument.

As for Mistymire I feel like you shouldn't have to have a group of people to do it. If you have the gear and the skill, that should be enough. Limiting someone to outside factors isn't very fundamental towards a fair and balanced game environment.


Its not confusing at all. The easiest surrival is alchemy so you go there after you get as far as you can in campaign. Then you go to a surrival with better gear. Ramparts is the easiest of the ones with better gear...Then you go to the endgame board they added after you gear up

You failed to quote my whole post and you're simplifying your responses to part of my argument. Anyone trying to start out in Nightmare will find that it doesn't work the way you'd think. Deeper Well isn't where you start. Neither is any starter challenge or anything like that. Its one of the last missions (and not even the entire mission, rather just the first few rounds). That's not the way progression works.

[fluffycalico]

1) As of yesterday I could solo to 19 in misty so you don't need a group
2) If you are demanding a connect the dots game where the dots are pre #ed I don't know what to tell you. Content does not have be laid out in exact path for you. Think some for yourself and the progression is easy to find. Also did you ever stop to think that the progression order may vary depending on class and play style? Or group size?

[LastWolf]

1) As of yesterday I could solo to 19 in misty so you don't need a group
2) If you are demanding a connect the dots game where the dots are pre #ed I don't know what to tell you. Content does not have be laid out in exact path for you. Think some for yourself and the progression is easy to find. Also did you ever stop to think that the progression order may vary depending on class and play style? Or group size?

I don't see how a simple progression system is a "connect the dots game". With what your saying we might as well jumble up Insane too. Deeper Well now has 5 ogres and Summit has only Goblins and the dragon has 10 health. Do you get my point? Why on earth would you change the layout of a game just to make it more annoying to figure out. Its not necessarily a challenge rather than an irritating format.

The first 3 rounds of Deeper Well are more difficult than Endless Spires and reward you with worse gear. No one will complete Deeper Well until they way surpass its gear requirement.

As for soloing Mistymire on Nightmare I'm sure you can with high end gear. Try beating it for the first time solo. Its out of the question.

[poskitt]

You're jumbling everything I've said together when they're separate arguments.

I've already progressed through the Low/Mid degree of Nightmare content. I don't like the way you're supposed to progress through it. Its messy and non-intuitive. That's one argument.


NM progression seems to work the same way as Insane Surv progression did? To me anyway. So unless you're brand new to the game or skipping Insane entirely, you should have some idea. And if something doesn't work, you try something else, correct? Well...most of us do.



As for Mistymire I feel like you shouldn't have to have a group of people to do it. If you have the gear and the skill, that should be enough. Limiting someone to outside factors isn't very fundamental towards a fair and balanced game environment.


If you have the gear and the skill it IS enough. But you obviously don't if you're complaining about it. The point i'm trying to make is that if it's too hard for you solo - get a group! The game is not going to be the same difficulty or easier playing solo. Or what would be the incentive for anyone to play with anyone else? You may find this to be a common theme with multiplayer games.

[fluffycalico]

The campaign is in story order not difficulty order adapt or fail

[CrzyRndm]

The first 3 rounds of Deeper Well are more difficult than Endless Spires and reward you with worse gear. No one will complete Deeper Well until they way surpass its gear requirement.

As for soloing Mistymire on Nightmare I'm sure you can with high end gear. Try beating it for the first time solo. Its out of the question.
Deeper wells can be done solo with insane gear. It requires a bit of thought (especially for people not used to spiders), but it is very doable. I've been helping people stuck in between (letting them build) lately, because it is the shift in mindset more than gear that trips people up. I've had people with 2000+ stats building, and we'd fail a map completely. A good build is worth a lot...

As to MM, you should be able to get enough gear from HC ES to get a few waves in (I did it in 17.6a(?, previous one) with unupgraded gear). Looting the chests gets you up to the boss (you will need a team to kill her probably). I've never bought gear for my builder, and I can consistently solo HC MM up to the boss now. No way I can do misty survival yet (solo), but I'll get there eventually.

Tower mage 600-1100-500-500 (all gear aquired as builder) just so you know I'm not another knox... (bloody rediculous stats)

[LastWolf]

NM progression seems to work the same way as Insane Surv progression did? To me anyway. So unless you're brand new to the game or skipping Insane entirely, you should have some idea. And if something doesn't work, you try something else, correct? Well...most of us do.



If you have the gear and the skill it IS enough. But you obviously don't if you're complaining about it. The point i'm trying to make is that if it's too hard for you solo - get a group! The game is not going to be the same difficulty or easier playing solo. Or what would be the incentive for anyone to play with anyone else? You may find this to be a common theme with multiplayer games.

I disagree that NM progression is the same as Insane Survival. I've never actually tried much survival insane on PC (I did some on console) because its more a personal reward rather a gear/achievement reward, but I doubt Endless Spire insane is easier than Deeper Well insane.

You're still missing my point on Mistymire though. I'm trying to say you shouldn't HAVE to get a group. As it is right now you have to do Mistymire with a group if its your first run through. I'm not anti-social or anything, I just would rather do something myself before I do it with a group. The incentive shouldn't be because you have to, rather than you want to. Playing with other people is fun. That's why you do it. If you're forced into playing with others its a less desirable experience.

On a side note I just tried Endless Spire on Nightmare Survival and got my *** handed to me. I planned out a great set-up, but how is anything supposed to stand up to FIFTEEN ogres on round 8? Either that's the butt of some cruel joke or I'm doing something completely wrong (which I'm willing to admit if I am).


@fluffycalico: Your posts are becoming more flame-like and less discussion-like.

[senzation54]

On a side note I just tried Endless Spire on Nightmare Survival and got my *** handed to me. I planned out a great set-up, but how is anything supposed to stand up to FIFTEEN ogres on round 8? Either that's the butt of some cruel joke or I'm doing something completely wrong (which I'm willing to admit if I am).

I haven't tried ES surv after the recent patch but personally I had more problems with the spiders on wave 10 and up than I had with the wave 8 ogres. As for how you're supposed to beat them: App guardian. Personally I did it with a genie. Also, last time I checked there were 12 ogres on wave 8...?

[Mizou]

as i said in another thread:

I am new, playing since like 22. January and i got help from friends but not their gear, they lvled me and told me what is important. I still can farm NIGHTMARE with my 1100 tower damage and 300 tower HP and Resistances arround 30% in Nightmare. I still can solo everything - so why cant you.

You dont play with a genie
you dont mix in auras or traps or squire towers
you dont wear a full set
you dont upgrade your gear cause you might think the klick button - klick button - klick button system sucks....
or you upgrade it wrong (i did too)
and last but not least GET SOME NUTS

[LastWolf]

I haven't tried ES surv after the recent patch but personally I had more problems with the spiders on wave 10 and up than I had with the wave 8 ogres. As for how you're supposed to beat them: App guardian. Personally I did it with a genie. Also, last time I checked there were 12 ogres on wave 8...?

I could try an App guardian. I would need to get one first seeing as how I don't even have an apprentice, but even then there were just SO many all at once.

And yes there were 15. 10 in the top left and 5 at the bottom right.

@Mizou: That was a horribly enlightening post. Thank you for your fine and clearly necessary input. Obvious sarcasm aside don't immediately assume the person you're talking to is an idiot. Its insulting and completely unneeded.

[fluffycalico]

I could try an App guardian. I would need to get one first seeing as how I don't even have an apprentice, but even then there were just SO many all at once.

And yes there were 15. 10 in the top left and 5 at the bottom right.
Um every time you complete a board on nightmare (at least 5 waves) you have a chance for a nice app / hunt guardian for 10 mana in your tavern.

[LastWolf]

Um every time you complete a board on nightmare (at least 5 waves) you have a chance for a nice app / hunt guardian for 10 mana in your tavern.

I'll give it a shot but I haven't seen anything yet. I completed Summit on Nightmare and the shop literally had stuff that would make Glitterhelm on hard look good.

[John Hadley]

If you don't have an apprentice guardian then you are not ready to solo much in nightmare mode. Certainly not survival on any map.

[senzation54]

I'll give it a shot but I haven't seen anything yet. I completed Summit on Nightmare and the shop literally had stuff that would make Glitterhelm on hard look good.

Endless Spires NM HC Campaign is where most people farm pets. However they're even better on Spires HC MM Surv after wave 8 or 9. By the way, if you're having problems with Endless Spires HC MM, you might want to try turning off either HC or MM or both.

[LastWolf]

Endless Spires NM HC Campaign is where most people farm pets. However they're even better on Spires HC MM Surv after wave 8 or 9. By the way, if you're having problems with Endless Spires HC MM, you might want to try turning off either HC or MM or both.

Well like I said I'll give it a shot. For now I need to go to bed. I still stand by my previous points and if anyone wishes to continue the discussion I'll check back tomorrow (which is technically today).

[Black Mamba]

OK I am sick of your garbage. Define causal because both the people you are calling hardcore extreme fit into many peoples defination of causal or just above causal. Stop using causal to define only yourself and others who want everything given to them easy mode. That is not what causal means. The truth is many causal players are getting the stuff done you aren't able to. I'm sorry but sometimes the truth hurts.
PS> Have 2 other real life friends that play 10-15 hrs a week. Both have Mythical defender, almost have legenday defender, and have done some misty surrival...

LOL, I'm just 1, JUST ONE map away from mythical defender achievement, that being: "SUMMIT" -_- :/ and I have HC Myth award in all other maps except the 3 boss maps, lack of good gear against bosses, is an issue, can't stay alive! About time they tweak myths so they start appearing, and by appearing i mean GOOD STATS myths start appearing in low level maps as well :/ !!!

[pdboddy]

I'm not saying that the degree to which the community had complained is warranted, but you have to understand there are people out there with maybe 600-800 tower attack, who were starting misty farming, who now cannot make it through even endless spires. this makes it much harder to progress. And you have to realize, they're thinking "So those who came before got to get amazing gear with less stats; essentially I'm being punished for being a late adopter?"

I don't have 800 in anything, the highest I have is about 550. I can make it to the two ogres in one place bit on NM Spires. A bit more upgrading and I am certain I will make it all the way through. I don't see how it's impossible by far.

[Black Mamba]

Deeper wells can be done solo with insane gear. It requires a bit of thought (especially for people not used to spiders), but it is very doable. I've been helping people stuck in between (letting them build) lately, because it is the shift in mindset more than gear that trips people up. I've had people with 2000+ stats building, and we'd fail a map completely. A good build is worth a lot...

As to MM, you should be able to get enough gear from HC ES to get a few waves in (I did it in 17.6a(?, previous one) with unupgraded gear). Looting the chests gets you up to the boss (you will need a team to kill her probably). I've never bought gear for my builder, and I can consistently solo HC MM up to the boss now. No way I can do misty survival yet (solo), but I'll get there eventually.

Tower mage 600-1100-500-500 (all gear aquired as builder) just so you know I'm not another knox... (bloody rediculous stats)

Absolutely true!
I managed to get the boss(Spider) with my friends just once, somehow...we took a lot of beating, at least 4-5 tries until we finally got her...changed setup a lot in each wave, most people think it's all about getting Good gear, nah no way, it's all about how you make your BUILD, that's it. Get your build on most maps correct, and you'll find how that 1% of the hardcore community got their stuff...just takes time...and believe me I started NM(Basic Maps) at lvl 72...gear at that time: 350+ mostly tower stats, had a good App Guardian (pre-7.16 patch lol, now it's more like a trophy in the item box!) But yea, if not, play a lot of U.M.F(Insane/Hard)...you'll see stuff Godlys (Myths, rarely if you have the whole DLC) you've never seen on even Glitter Insane!
It's not all that tough, just need good setups :) !!! Still it's a pain though...to see things like towers getting nerfed and all :/ NM Weapon Projectile Speed Nerf, made me really really sad :/

[Vallos]

had a good App Guardian (pre-7.16 patch lol, now it's more like a trophy in the item box!)

App guardians are still quite good for people whos tower damage stats are below 1000.

At that level the guardian still triples the damage output of the towers.

[Vallos]

On a side note I just tried Endless Spire on Nightmare Survival and got my *** handed to me. I planned out a great set-up, but how is anything supposed to stand up to FIFTEEN ogres on round 8? Either that's the butt of some cruel joke or I'm doing something completely wrong (which I'm willing to admit if I am).




No, it is a DPS check and it takes work and tweaking over several attempts to get past it.

It took me more than a dozen attempts, each time observing where the defenses failed first and making minor adjustments to them before I got past it and even then my defenses looked like a disaster area after a tornado when the wave was done. Fortunately the next two waves after that are a lot easier.

And I already explained to you ~exactly~ how to build up your defenses to stand up to them earlier in this same thread.

Keep in mind that once you get past it a few times (and you WILL fail a lot in the attempts) the better gear does drop and once you aquire it and start upgrading it the Ogre wave becomes less and less of a hassle.

Focus on your Tower Health and Attack stats and bring along a good Huntress guardian for that wave (alternately, focus on Tower Health and Attack speed if you have a good Apprentice guardian instead).

Respec and prioritize gear to maximize those stats if needed.

If you want my final layout for beating that wave...

http://html5.cubicleninja.com/cubicleninja/html5/dd/index.htm?layout=18173 (http://html5.cubicleninja.com/cubicleninja/html5/dd/index.htm?layout=18174)

Keep in mind you will probably fail several times before getting the placement and timing down for that wave.

[Disciple]

My Survival Guide has been updated with 7.16b layouts contributed by the great players over the in PC/Console Guide forum. Link to the guide is in my signature. Still looking for a guide to solo the Spider Queen after 7.16.

Mistymire Survival is easier with 7.16b now. /thread

[V-chaos]

That being said, right now I am at the cusp between the "casual" level of the game and the "elite" and as such can understand to some degree both viewpoints.

What about the Hardcore? I dont see Elitists and Hardcore as the same group. Ive played with a few elitist and it was bad before super loot, they've sort of bleed into each other now because of super/uber loot.

In November I was kicked from a Death from Above on Insane group, because the host wanted people with around 300 stats (or something like that, it was some "perfect" number) even though I could solo that challenge in a full group. Thats what I feel an Elitist is, wont hesitate to kick you if you dont meet their standards. Youre allowed to play the game you want, though I think its unfair for some people.

Hardcore are the people who know this game inside and out. They normally dont care if they win or lose, since a game is about having fun while doing it(fun is subjective though). They know what to do and how to do, the people who tested out things or made guides are usually hardcore. Are helpful to other players and help them, if other players want it.

Casuals...well I do own casual games, but I dont play casually, I would think a Casual player would want to accomplish something on their own terms and time, when they get done with a game/session, they want to feel like they fulfilled something.

If you look at like a scale like, Casual---Hardcore---Elitist, you can be in between.

Ok now thats out of the way. As someone whose arriving on 600hours of gameplay, I do think the wall to Nightmare is quite high, I remember when Nightmare was first introduced, I was able to solo it quite easily with a level 70 Apprentice Builder, and when I mean easily, I mean using Godly armour with 25 max upgrades to it. Then after the nerf to the App Towers, I was unable to solo it and had to find Mythical and Level my Apprentice to level 74.

They probably guessed people who do Insane Survival or Insane Uber Monster Fest for their gear to move to Nightmare, which I had done neither (Well Survival a few times, once all the way. I wasnt looking for armour both times, and only for the Giraffe), Survival takes 5 to 8 hours of your life to go to the finale wave, and Uber Monster Fest would be way to hard for the people looking for better gear. Uber Monster Fest is, or atleast it feels like an Alternative to Survival, but that requires a full group and its hard if a lot of people cant put out a lot of DPS.

The only class who has good gear is my main DPS Squire, I did find gear for him, but I also bought (Which I hate doing), the other classes I have 74 I find them armour, but I hate doing Survival, I usually stop after wave 17 since its so boring. Though the armour I bought was only a slight step up from the ones I found on Endless Spires Nightmare, just 80 upgrades instead of 70 (stats more or less the same). Guess that too is an alternative buying armour, but I doubt Casuals would want to grind Mana (though from grinding levels they could have accumulated a lot of mana, but I doubt they would do multiple characters).

[Disciple]

Uber Monster Fest is, or atleast it feels like an Alternative to Survival, but that requires a full group and its hard if a lot of people cant put out a lot of DPS.

It is an alternate, but it doesnt require a full group. Back in the day I used this build I found on the forums to solo insane UMF. Just need an Aura + Trap Builder and an Apprentice Guardian from Hard Summit.

http://html5.cubicleninja.com/dd/index.htm?layout=18195

Forgot to mention: I dpsed with an Apprentice for extra projectile fun, almost instant upgrades, and almost instant heals.

[Black Mamba]

If you want to move on from Insane to NM, try beating UMF or at least collect gear that drops after wave 9/10 on UMF, you'll find it easy to best first couple waves on NM Spries...grind Myth beat Deepr Well and so on from that gear, find better ones, and welcome to NM :) !!!
Dev's aren't foolish to make UMF just to grind pets and have fun...there's a reason why everyone suggests UMF, unless you try it and loot the stuff u find there I personally think it's tough to jump from Insane to NM, if not insane try Hard, still not bad to give you an idea on what kinda gear you'll find...
The "gap" they say, some of the members were talking about; UMF and (HC?) Insane Survival(some maps) is that gap you need to fill. Otherwise, be happy to waste your hard earned mana on buying items :) !!!
And no I don't even have any char' with 1k+ tower stats, only have 1k+ Tow-Dmg on my Mage...rest all my char's are just average stats...Although I can't beat Misty solo(no way, period), at least I farm nice amount of gear in the waves for other maps :)
Everything, all the nerfs and all are fine, you just need to try !!!
Again I'll emphasize on this: "Having great gear isn't a necessicity to overcome NM, a great well build setup is. Once you figure out how to deal with spiders, you'll find that it's quite possible to beat NM with below average(+/-) myth gear."

[theoxygenthief]

I agree with this poster. Let's put it another way: I have gear with 120 boost to all tower stats at 100ups. I want get gear with 140boost to all tower stats with 110ups. Previously it was already hard to get that kind of gear unless you teamed up with other people with much MUCH better gear to do insanely hard NM MM HC survival. Now it's near impossible. The rewards in the game do not correlate AT ALL with the difficulty of obtaining those rewards. The rewards/drops system in the game needs a complete rethink

[Harbingerlll]

ITT: Bad kids complaining that, now take a second to read this next part aloud, NIGHTMARE MODE isn't roflstomped like the other 4 difficulties and whining that the people who take some time to organize themselves a little are the "1%" and need to be brought to their level to understand. Please just stop. You're embarassing. This game isn't hard. It wasn't very hard before, it's not very hard now. You just need to put effort into it. Hours played has very little to do with how good you are. Just group up with 3 friends(GASP) and proceed to win. Thanks.

For the record, knox is win. Vallos is a gigantic whiner.

[pdboddy]

I agree, Knox is win. They definitely know what they're saying when they talk DunDef.

[Vallos]

For the record, knox is win. Vallos is a gigantic whiner.

For the Record.. Your opinion and two pennies has an overall value of...One cent.

;)

[LastWolf]

ITT: Bad kids complaining that, now take a second to read this next part aloud, NIGHTMARE MODE isn't roflstomped like the other 4 difficulties and whining that the people who take some time to organize themselves a little are the "1%" and need to be brought to their level to understand. Please just stop. You're embarassing. This game isn't hard. It wasn't very hard before, it's not very hard now. You just need to put effort into it. Hours played has very little to do with how good you are. Just group up with 3 friends(GASP) and proceed to win. Thanks.

For the record, knox is win. Vallos is a gigantic whiner.

Its hard to take a post like this seriously when all you do is just say exactly what everyone else expects you to say. You have no reasoning behind your argument and assume that just because YOU'VE done something that that means you're right and you're opinion is higher above others'. You're ****y attitude is embarrassing and you've provided no content worth reading that contributes anything useful to this discussion. Using terms like "bad kids" and "whining" makes you seem like an egotistical jerk who thinks he is better than everyone else and doesn't need to support his arguments with anything other than meaningless banter.

Try again.

[Jaktar]

I don't have a lot to add to what's already been said. My .02c:

My progression was:
Medium Campaign
Hard Campaign
Insane Campaign
Insane Survivals up to 15 for each pet
Insane alchemical labs
Insane UMF (a lot)
This is when Misty Campaign was released
Nightmare through Throne Room and got stomped hard

All of this was done solo for the most part. I have 2 friends that I played with occasionally (especially early alchemical and UMF setups until we all got some gear).

Nightmare is more of the same. Find a map you like and grind out a survival until you get better gear. No, I can't beat a lot of nightmare maps solo yet. Am I still having fun? Yep. Is it sometimes frustrating? Yep. Will I take you with me on a survival run for gear? Nope. Do I have aspergers? I might. Why are you asking me all these questions? Leave me alone.

[ihearthawthats]

If you don't have an apprentice guardian then you are not ready to solo much in nightmare mode. Certainly not survival on any map.
see, this is why i hated nm more than anything else. it became mindless and boring. you're limited to only a few viable options, and then its a matter of brute forcing your way to victory. app towers with app guardian 24/7 zzzz. honestly the app tower nerf is a welcome change as is the pet buff "rebalance" even though it seems that again trendy has gone a bit overboard.

[Tycius]

I believe that overall problem for this is the loot (primarily referring to armor) distribution system. It is extremely improbably that you will find mid-high mythic loot below wave 15. The only map where I have seen excellent loot drop consistently is misty survival (+17).

Solution: A more varied loot distribution system. Create a system where there is a chance for high lvl loot to drop in lower survival waves. Chance being 0.1-2% (increasing as waves get higher). This would bridge the gap between the low-mid and high mythic gear. People would still need to grind but it wouldn't be as discouraging. Might make survival more appealing to players with the possibility of obtaining some good gear.

You can only do survival so many times. Most people here have other obligations and can't afford to play 5-7 hours a night survival mode.

Constructive criticism? No flaming please.

[fluffycalico]

The easy bridge from insane to nightmare is....alchemy labs wave 1 HC. And yes I ment to say wave 1. You have about a 50% chance to get a 70+^ mythic armor from the chests after wave 1. If you can't do HC wave 1 you can do just regular wave one. If you are decked out in fullly upgraded godly gear wave 1 of alchemy should give you no issues. Just repeat wave 1 like 20 times and you will have a full set of mythic armor about 70^.

[Black Mamba]

The easy bridge from insane to nightmare is....alchemy labs wave 1 HC. And yes I ment to say wave 1. You have about a 50% chance to get a 70+^ mythic armor from the chests after wave 1. If you can't do HC wave 1 you can do just regular wave one. If you are decked out in fullly upgraded godly gear wave 1 of alchemy should give you no issues. Just repeat wave 1 like 20 times and you will have a full set of mythic armor about 70^.

So true, people don't think the same way that's the problem.
Just coz some elitist showed couple of screens of a random OP gear say a Myth armor 200^ and 2-3 stats 150+, everyone started asking where to find it and when he/she showed where to find it, everyone just went berserk and started that map right away without actually asking HOW THEY ENDED UP IN CLEARING that map or from where they got the stuff to clear it in first place.
Really, everyone saying NM is unbeatable etc. is just whining for no reason and loves being spoon-feeded, if you want to clear NM you gotta work your a**es out for earning that sort of gear. You won't be randomly finding a "10mana" Myth gear with 200^ in your tavern store, it's not gonna happen.
Only thing you can do is farm mana, go to AFK shops pay 200m for 1 piece, farm mana pay another 200m for another piece, continue until you have a full set, then go NM only to find out: "Hah that 200m piece was from this map this wave, and it's so easy to farm, oh derp 200m wasted, 4 times?!?!?! And oh, there are better ones dropping in successive, wow really wasted hard earned mana!", right?

[poskitt]

I could try an App guardian. I would need to get one first seeing as how I don't even have an apprentice, but even then there were just SO many all at once.

And yes there were 15. 10 in the top left and 5 at the bottom right.

@Mizou: That was a horribly enlightening post. Thank you for your fine and clearly necessary input. Obvious sarcasm aside don't immediately assume the person you're talking to is an idiot. Its insulting and completely unneeded.

This post explains a lot.

1. No App Guardian. (Do you atleast have a Hunt Guard? Any Guardian pet can be used with any hero by the way).
2. No Apprentice.

Like it or not, even since the nerfs, Apprentice is basically a must for NM content. Why? Several reasons.

1. Their towers are ranged, so with a good App Guardian you can buff 5 towers to do 4x the damage, and they can ALL dps the Ogres. With a Squire, it's more than likely not all your boosted towers are dps'ing the Ogres. Unless you use tons of Ballistas, but these struggle vs other mobs especially Assassin's.

2. Their walls remove immunities making their ranged elemental towers even more powerful. Your first thought might be that you're forced into using Magic Missile Towers on NM because of Ogres with elemental resists. Wrong. Soon as the Ogres hit those walls their immunities are gone and your App Guard boosted Fireball Towers utterly destroy them.

3. Baiting Spiders with the above mentioned walls. Spiders attack the nearest target after they spawn, be it Tower or Player. If you build App Walls in the right places, Spiders immediately stick to them after spawning - which removes any immunities they might have.

4. Lightning Towers are the BEST towers for taking care of Spiders. Why? Because they have a 360 degree field of attack and good range (even after nerf). Correctly positioned they cover lanes AND destroy those Spiders which are attacking your App Walls.

5. Magic Missile Towers. Although less DPS than Fireball Towers and with no AOE these can be extremely useful, especially for Wyverns. For their low DU cost they are excellent ranged DPS with no elemental issues.

Have you been building on a Squire/Countess? Lvl an Apprentice or Adept is the best advice I can give you. I don't have a single Squire Tower in any of my builds - not one. Even after the buff to Squire Towers and the nerf to Apprentice Towers. My two builders are Apprentice and Monk, and I think you'll find most people are the same.

Now as to your repeated insistence that NM Misty should be able to be Solod first then Multiplayered second, how does this make any sense? First of all it can be Solod before you play it with others, provided you follow the advice I posted above, but that's not the point. The point is that in order to balance the game and keep people playing together maps simply MUST be easier, or at least the SAME difficulty when playing with others.

I know that you don't want to be forced to play with others, but you have to understand that if it only got more difficult while playing a map with more people then MANY people simply wouldn't. There are few enough games up as it is because people generally prefer to solo - there simply has to be that incentive there to play with others. I know I generally prefer to solo, especially when looking for loot. Why? Because I get all the loot. And also - most people are crap. That's just how it is. But i'm never going to be able to complete Misty NM HC Surv by soloing, and I gladly accept that.

[lofi]

http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?36080-Loot-progress-path-for-dummies&

[theoxygenthief]

This game is advertised as being a Singleplayer game also.

[taylordcraig]

See... That I believe.

And please note that I have never said that people shouldn't play like that ~if they choose to~ just that the perspective of someone who does will never be aligned to understand the problems that changes to lower level content cause to the "casual" players who nevertheless still want some avenue for advancement beyond where insane/early nightmare can take them.

It's like asking a billionaire to empathize with a family that earns 40k per year over a 5% increase in their homeowner's policy.

Worlds apart.

It is worlds apart and I see where you're coming from. But then HOW pretel, in a f*ing videogame, are you going to balance it so someone who plays for 50 hours and someone who plays for 500 hours get the same **** done? How is the person spending so much more time going to feel? NM MM is the very end of the game right now. And NM is EARLY ACCESS, it's not even technically out yet. How many hours of raiding did it take for you to beat Naxx with your guild in Vanilla wow? Oh you never saw that content so they re-released it two expansions later? Yeah, that's how endgame works. Most people shouldn't see NM, judging on how casually everyone says they play.

Edit: i skipped like six pages of this broken record thread so if this post is totally out of context now... meh

double edit: have any of you even tried the new ponies in NM? My insane quality pony can kill an ogre on NM in like 3 seconds.

tripple edit: went back and read a post saying someone tried nightmare without an apprentice builder... WAT THE HECK PEOPLE NO WONDER YOU CANT CLEAR CONTENT

[lawrry]

It is worlds apart and I see where you're coming from. But then HOW pretel, in a f*ing videogame, are you going to balance it so someone who plays for 50 hours and someone who plays for 500 hours get the same **** done? How is the person spending so much more time going to feel? NM MM is the very end of the game right now. And NM is EARLY ACCESS, it's not even technically out yet. How many hours of raiding did it take for you to beat Naxx with your guild in Vanilla wow? Oh you never saw that content so they re-released it two expansions later? Yeah, that's how endgame works. Most people shouldn't see NM, judging on how casually everyone says they play.

Edit: i skipped like six pages of this broken record thread so if this post is totally out of context now... meh

double edit: have any of you even tried the new ponies in NM? My insane quality pony can kill an ogre on NM in like 3 seconds.

tripple edit: went back and read a post saying someone tried nightmare without an apprentice builder... WAT THE HECK PEOPLE NO WONDER YOU CANT CLEAR CONTENT

i was thinking this too. why are people complaining? you should be working for what you get. since this is endgame content of course its going to be hard. why would you want it to be easy?

and why are people complaining about spending lots of time on the game? guessing other people have never grinded before on other mmorpgs.

[Thaelyn]

Interesting thread. I can see both points of view and agree/disagree with some elements of each.

Where I personally think the problem lies is that Trendy, in order to provide more of a challenge in the hardest content in the game, makes broad stroke changes that effect the ability of players who haven't yet gotten there to make their way to the hardest content in the game. They didn't just rebalance NM Misty, they rebalanced everything leading up to it. That, in and of itself, is absolutely fine and understandable, provided they don't tune it to the point that you have to have the stats of the people who were seeing no challenge pre-patch in order to get to the end post patch. I'm not suggesting this is what they've done, as I've not yet explored all options to get there. I do think this is the general feeling some frustrated players have, though.

As for those who go on about how someone who has 50 hrs played doesn't "deserve" the same benefit as someone who has 500 hrs, you're right only up to a point. The way the loot progression is structured in this game has shifted back to what it was before the first UMF where 500 casual hours =/= 500 hardcore hours. Limiting the availability of progression to a game mode that demands a commitment of several hours in a single session is flawed design. If I, as a more casual player, put in 500 hours a couple hours at a time, I deserve to get to the same place as a hardcore player who does 500 hours in 10 hour chunks. Both of us have put in the 500 hours, but his are more valuable because he devotes more time per session than I. There is a fundamental flaw in that type of game design.

Again, I have not yet explored all options to get beyond where I am now, so I'm certainly not saying it's impossible, nor am I suggesting it's too hard. The only thing I'm saying (in this thread, anyway) is flawed is the notion that one must endure 5-7 hour survival sessions in order to progress. If Trendy were to rebalance UMF to once again be an alternative to survival I'd have no issue here. As it stands, though (and this is from reading forum posts about rewards from NM UMF 1 & 2, I haven't completed either yet) the gear available from those challenges caps out around 170^ for armor. In order to move beyond that to the realm of 200^+ one must run survival. In anticipation of some of the objections that I expect will come as a result of the previous part of this paragraph, I do not think that UMF should drop the same or better loot than survival. I just think that (provided the numbers I've read on the forums are accurate) the gap between the two should be closed. Perhaps just to the tune of 200^ from UMF where as one would need survival for the 240-250^.

[Draco18s]

If you can't make it through ES with 800 stats you're doing something severely wrong.

Man, I'd kill for 800s in stats.

Also, last I checked (oh, Christmas), Endless Spires was (mostly) doable with five hundreds. Which I believe goes back to the OP's point:

Things are harder now.

[ihearthawthats]

It is worlds apart and I see where you're coming from. But then HOW pretel, in a f*ing videogame, are you going to balance it so someone who plays for 50 hours and someone who plays for 500 hours get the same **** done? How is the person spending so much more time going to feel? NM MM is the very end of the game right now.
theres a point when level and gear restrictions become ridiculous and become only a measure of how much time you spent on the game and not how good you are at it.

to use your example, if someone's only played for 50 hours he shouldn't be able to complete survival misty solely because he doesn't have appropriate gear, but also because he's just not good enough at the game yet. however, if he was a fast learner and was able to acquire the necessary knowledge and skills within 50 hours, then why shouldn't he be able to complete survival misty if he's skilled enough? why have this arbitrary restriction that you have to play for 500 hours in order to beat challenging maps?

i wholeheartedly agree that not everyone should be able to beat nightmare mode, but the reason should never be because they don't have the time to invest 500 hours farming gear.

now don't get me wrong, there should be some learning curve restrictions to a degree, but the ones in this game are pretty ridiculous and imbalanced.

tldr; progression needs to be more skill-based and less gear farming-based. give us more options to get good gear other than spending ridiculously long hours grinding it out in survival mode.

[taylordcraig]

But what skill is there in this game other than setting up your towers? You can't possibly say that upgrading repairing and dpsing takes "skill". There's a VERY small skill cap to this game. The rest is mostly trial and error. That's the real problem imo.

[Detpurroc]

The only thing thats harder is mixmode, which is not needed to get better loot. We didnt have that option before >__>

[steveman0]

Interesting read. I see things haven't really changed much since I last played. I've long since taken an extended vacation until the progression is fixed. I'm hoping by the time the 4 shards DLCs are complete they'll actually have something resembling a clear progression path from beginning to end. I have no problem with it taking time to get to the end of the path but the problem is that there is no clear way to get there.

Combine with the the attitude of the elitists who, rather than helping those who haven't made it to the top yet, troll threads telling others that they are bad as though the only reason they struggled to get to the top was to bad-mouth others much as the idiot knox has done earlier in the thread.

I just hope that Tredy doesn't let the elitists and top players misguide them into thinking about carefully balancing the content from the new player's perspective.

[zingfharn]

I can't tell if you're *****ing about survival or not. I thought you were, but then you mentioned the bosses. So I don't know. Anyway.

It sounds like you've beaten some campaign, and now expect to be able to beat all campaign. That's never, ever going to work. The boss levels require a ramp in gear that you can't get from playing campaign. I agree it's absurd, but it's the way it is.
So, you're going to need to do at least a little survival or UMF first. But first, a story.

I was on Endless Spires survival a couple of nights ago - me and 2 friends. One of them _HATES_ survival, but the nature of survival is idleboost towers 80%, run around like crazy 20%, so we were chatting in the downtime.
Anyway, the ones who hates it was complaining that we need to farm for 6+ hours to get the high end gear. The other pointed out that the only reason to farm high end gear is to be able to farm for longer. That is, with our builder at 1400 stats and the rest of us on ~1000, and judicious use of apprentices (hint, squire finally found a use), we beat the spider queen on nightmare. Now, this was 3 weeks ago, so I don't know if various patches have made it worse or easier, but we never had a problem finding the gear we needed. Here are some ways you might try.

Survival. Pick a map you can AFK on survival easily (Magus Quarters, Foundries, Summit), and let it ride out. Foundries is particular good for AFK but the waves get slooooooow, and random crystal damage is a pain in the butt. Alc labs or royal gardens have better rewards sooner, but you need to be more active, and playing with 2 makes life easier. There are some semi-afk builds on cubicle ninja for the 3-crystal maps, which offer even better rewards. Summit in particular is a good one for this.

Don't have time for survival? Well, you only need to make wave 15 to start seeing stuff better than campaign, which won't take much longer than trying to kill the spider queen. But ok. What about UMF: http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?45203-Current-UMF-Solo-Strategies
You can start farming this solo with a squire with much lower stats than specified and find 100 ups gear on waves 8/9. I started with a squire with 300 thp, 700 tdam.
Spend the ridiculous amounts of mana you'll make on upgrading _that_ gear, and progress a little further. The entire map now takes me 52 minutes to complete - it's timed, so it literally cannot take much longer.
Towards the end of the waves, you'll find 150/160 armour and 200+ weapons. Not every time, but you'll find it.
This has helped me get 6 characters to 1200-1400 stats.

Or, do what my friend does: name your room "Host AFK: repair for loot". set up survival, play out the first few waves solo to complete the set up, open the room, pick a good position to stand with a decent pet, and go to the pub/read a book/call your mom. Come back 3 hours later for wave 15+, and find some upgrades. Sure, there's a high chance you've wiped, but you literally weren't even playing. So even if it works 1 in 10 times, that's still free superloot. So just set it up and try again.

Ugh. Edit: Sleepy. Posted this without seeing there were another 7 pages of broken record. And hadn't see the bit about the app pet. Still laughing at that one.

[zingfharn]

This game is advertised as being a Singleplayer game also.So is Brink. And call of duty. And Battlefield 3.

[senzation54]

Man, I'd kill for 800s in stats.

Also, last I checked (oh, Christmas), Endless Spires was (mostly) doable with five hundreds. Which I believe goes back to the OP's point:

Things are harder now.

http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?46305-Guide-Your-entry-to-mythical-gear-(With-in-depth-explanations-for-new-players)

This guy did first wave of Endless Spires NM HC naked as a squire. Farm that a couple times till you have a decent set and you should be able to get further. Full ES armor should place you somewhere at least in the 300 stats range. Spend the mana you earn on upgrading your items and you can surely reach 500 stats which should be more than enough to clear it.

The biggest mistake people make is that they're saving up their mana instead of pumping it into their gear. upgrading gear is how you progress. You get gear from one map that's pretty much equal to the stuff you need to clear it. Then you upgrade that gear and you can move on to harder stuff and get even better gear, etc. Once you get really good gear, mana flows over anyway. I open my shop for half an hour and make a billion without doing squat. I upgrade my 200^ armor and 250^ weapons fully as soon as I get them, and I don't even give a crap about the mana I don't earn from Survivals because I'm always far above the 200m soft cap.

[Dooky]

Just a quick run of the numbers to show you how available certain gear levels are if you put in the effort. If you were to farm HC NM ES, I would say that potential for 80-110 stat items is very possible, same with upgrades. Let's say you take the bare minimum of that 80, and assume you can get 4 pieces with 80 tAtk each with 70^. Then, you get a pet from the shop with also 80 tAtk, and a 120^ weapon with 80 tAtk.

That's ((80+70)x4x1.3) + 80 + 80 + 120 = 1060. No excuse really, just requires basic minmaxing skills.

[yuwy]

When i read this thread, i see the whole Casual vs Hardcore debate from WoW.

1. Game is not soloable at end game.

If you bought DD for the solo aspect then you sir are going against the spirit of this game (read: multi classes with unique abilities)

2. Time must be spent to get the best gear.

This is so fundamentally obvious that it boggles the mind why someone who refuses to work hard in life deserves the best things. Its like me graduating from high school expecting 100k / year salary. It might happen but chances are it most likely won't.

3. Bosses are hard.

If you think DD bosses are hard, then sir you have never played any decent MMO where fighting some bosses takes at least 2 hours. (40 man Naxx was easily a 7 hour a night over 2-3 days affair). To be honest i think the fundamental problem is that there are many DD players who fail to understand the concept of tank/dps/heal. I have to admit the first 4 difficulties you could do anything and win. But in nightmare you HAVE to have a tank on the boss. At least with barbarians you dont need to heal the tank like you did in other games.

Final thoughts:
Sure the game isnt set up so simply so that progression was simple as do 1-2-3. But guess what? you can either choose to sit and complain and whine, or you can take the proactive steps that people have given you and do something with that knowledge. Hell if my gear got completely wiped now, I could regain it in less time than it took before because of the knowledge i have accumulated. The build positions i have learned etc.

[BestProfileName]

I work 30 hours a week. I go to school 15 hours. I hang out with my friends Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. I have a dps and builder both with 2k+ stats. I am the 1% doing endgame Misty. Problem?

Do you learn anything useful?

Do you self educate? How's your knowledge on Politics, Economics etc. How is that? And 15 hours a week? Don't do any study at home?

[BehindTimes]

Unless you have a 2nd job or a 6 month old kid...15hrs a free time per week is not much. If you have less than that you need to relook at your schedule before you drive yourself crazy. You only get 1 life find some time to enjoy it.

I do take offense to this. I don't have a second job, but reality sets in sometime.

Job: 60 hours/week
Commute: 15 hours/week
Gym: 7 hours/week

Now, assuming I get 8 hours of sleep per day, which is what's considered healthy, that leaves me with 30 hours of free time. This is not Dungeon Defenders time, but rather it includes things such as eating, chores, shopping, other errands, and what's remaining is for gaming and other entertainment. (You'd be surprised how quickly those free hours get eaten up on essentials).

Sure, I could sleep less, but I can't control how long I work, and my financial situation doesn't allow me to live closer to the job without taking a severe hit to quality of life. What you consider a decent amount of free time to invest in Dungeon Defenders other people might consider a significant portion of their free time. Not all of us live in the same conditions, nor have (or can have) the same priorities.

Now, I'm not saying I can't beat NM Spires, as I have, with significantly lower stats than the OP stated, but certain maps seem to be more about, you now need uber gear to be able to beat the map itself, so you can farm it on survival to get the gear you need to be able to beat the map. It's a circular dependency.

[FruitLord]

I am in the same situation as BehindTimes. I have a normal life with a wife, job, etc. But I won't complain about the hours it takes. There seems to be a particular breaking point in this game I am stuck at. It was easy enough doing ES and now I'm doing Misty HC up to boss. But beating the boss isn't possible unless you have a friend with decent stats to help out. Mostly in the tanking category.

BTW, my app and squire both have about 550/1050/550/550 stats now. And keep in mind that this is with a couple upgrades from doing misty campaign hc to the boss. So my starting stats were probably about the same minus 200-300 tower attack.

To those saying this is like WoW and you shouldn't be able to solo, blahblahblah. This isn't an MMO. The page specifically states single player. I generally don't play games where I must depend on others to progress(unless it involves me shooting them...), so yes I expect to be able to solo the content.

I'm still working on my stats and possible strat for the queen. I think it is going to involve tanking her with my builder while standing in auras, hoping she gets owned before I get overrun with ogres. Doesn't seem likely with the stats I can get from campaign misty gear.

[Carlh267]

http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?46305-Guide-Your-entry-to-mythical-gear-(With-in-depth-explanations-for-new-players)

This guy did first wave of Endless Spires NM HC naked as a squire. Farm that a couple times till you have a decent set and you should be able to get further. Full ES armor should place you somewhere at least in the 300 stats range. Spend the mana you earn on upgrading your items and you can surely reach 500 stats which should be more than enough to clear it.

The biggest mistake people make is that they're saving up their mana instead of pumping it into their gear. upgrading gear is how you progress. You get gear from one map that's pretty much equal to the stuff you need to clear it. Then you upgrade that gear and you can move on to harder stuff and get even better gear, etc. Once you get really good gear, mana flows over anyway. I open my shop for half an hour and make a billion without doing squat. I upgrade my 200^ armor and 250^ weapons fully as soon as I get them, and I don't even give a crap about the mana I don't earn from Survivals because I'm always far above the 200m soft cap.

I have to agree with this post, not upgrading armor can work for easy-insane (I was able to get away with this) but once you get to nightmare upgrading is absolutely essential.

[Tastic]

BTW, my app and squire both have about 550/1050/550/550 stats now. And keep in mind that this is with a couple upgrades from doing misty campaign hc to the boss. So my starting stats were probably about the same minus 200-300 tower attack.

You can get over 1600 Tower DPS and Wall Health from HC campaign, so keep farming. Leave the chests that don't respawn alone until wave 12 and then open them. Gives you 4 more chances at good loot. And obviously you need to play on HC setting, but I believe you were doing that.

Other than that, you would probably have more success soloing with a barbarian tank. You wont be able to re-position the turrets targeting the wyverns, so you might need to consider also leveling up a mage to 1600ish tower DPS so you could drop 2 MM turret to cover both wyvern spawns for 6 DU instead of the 12 DU 2x harpoons cost. You'll probably need gas traps as well to slow down the lanes if your going to be unable to repair as the walls take the most damage when the ogres are on them and the ninjas and kobalds are hitting them.

Or you could just grab a 2nd person and change them with repairing the walls. You could do all the building yourself and switch to a barbarian to tank as well. Then these people just need to run around and repair the walls after each ogre. Would probably be a lot easier then trying to solo at the gear level you can attain just from the campaign.

[draemn]

I have no issue with the whole endgame and giving high level players something to push themselves to...

I have HUGE issue with giving out high end rewards in these endgame modes. I've been stuck around 500 stats (with a single stat getting as high as 700) for over a month now. Where can I play game modes to find better items? I can't unless I have hacked players or otherwise 2x stronger than me players come and do all the work.

That is just frustrating... To get items to boost my stats to the 1k mark I have to play a game mode that I can't even win at? Maybe I'm missing something, but I doubt it.

[Rorschach]

Other than that, you would probably have more success soloing with a barbarian tank. You wont be able to re-position the turrets targeting the wyverns, so you might need to consider also leveling up a mage to 1600ish tower DPS so you could drop 2 MM turret to cover both wyvern spawns for 6 DU instead of the 12 DU 2x harpoons cost. You'll probably need gas traps as well to slow down the lanes if your going to be unable to repair as the walls take the most damage when the ogres are on them and the ninjas and kobalds are hitting them.

Da***????

How the heck are you building this? I cover each wyvernspawn with one harp only and the southern one even pulls double duty by also shooting at laneogres. And no i dont have imba stats, just 900/900/400/500 and this is plenty.

@draemn: Farm HC Misty Campaign, the stuff you get from chests after the first 2-3 waves should be upgrades already (with some luck at least) that map should get you at least to where i am now and there are stilldroping ups on wave 11 & 12 so i'd say getting 2 1000 stats + 2 500-600 stas with stuff from misty campaign is possible.